Who says you are a doormat. Everyone lives according to his/her conveniences. If what you and your husband decide is the best for your family, why bother what others say. People will always say something or the other. Live as you deem fit.

Keep blogging amyway!

I agree with live in a society in which working women increasingly will assume that a stay at home mom is somehow a doormat.

My wife is a stay at home mom. She takes care of pretty much all the domestic stuff (our outside stuff we have a yard service for but before that I used to take care of the outside the house stuff). But I do work more than 8 hours per day.  It's 11:46 pm right now and I'm just finishing at the office. That's the 3rd 14 hour day this week for me. 

When I get home, I just want to spend time with my wife and kids. Maybe veg a little bit. Read a book maybe.  My wife understands that. She makes our house a wonderful home to return to every evening.  She likes to cook and she likes to do domestic things.  We'll have company over and she'll make brownies and I swear, sometimes the people (usually the women) will get this look on their faces like my wife is some sort of mindless stepford wife.

And that really annoys me.  Besides the fact that my wife has a dual degree in applied mathematics and computer science, she spends a great deal of time reading and writing. I'd per her head to head with any working woman in terms of intellectual capability.  And my wife is certainly no doormat.   When it comes to most of the day to day decisions in our lives, she's in charge.  My job is to bring home the material "wealth" that she can then convert into things that make our lives good.  And it works for us.

As the person who does all the cooking in our household, and gardening, a good share of ironing and cleaning ... and WELL beyond an 8 hour day I firmly believe in allowing people to do what works for them. And yes, myself and my wife both work.

We have no kids yet, but I'd happily be a stay at home dad! This is never likely to happen (stay at home dad that is) for practical financial reasons, but who really cares as long as it works. It's bizarre, because somehow I think society would look more positively upon a stay at home dad. It would be seen as someone putting family first and someone who really cares about what's best for everyone - especially by women and those men who don't have ego problems.

You keep it up Jill - do what works for you and offer to let those who consider you a doormat the chance to babysit if it's all so easy, so you and your fella can go out on the town!

>> So I would retract that statement and apologize to Jill and her spouse.

...forgive me, but I just can't seem to bring myself to apologies to a man that sees it as some badge of honor that his wife do ALL the work around the house even if he IS self employeed.....heck..I myself am self employeed...and *I* managed to somehow find the time to also help my wife around the house....after all...I live there also!

See...fact is, I am more in tune to her having a real job apparently than YOU are...because I realize that her staying home and being a "house wife" is a VERY hard job....and thus for her husband not to help in the house work makes him, in my book a bit snobbish!

So...sorry..I can't bring myself to apologize to Jill and her spouse.....

she first come in with "I'm not a door mat" and then "My husband and I agreed quite openly that if I am to stay home full time that I am to take care of pretty much everything around the house"

to me...it reads as if she's allowing him to make her one...

Just IMHO.....take it or leave it...but thats the extent you'll get....no "I'm sorry" when to say this would be a lie on my part....

Jac

she first come in with "I'm not a door mat" and then "My husband and I agreed quite openly that if I am to stay home full time that I am to take care of pretty much everything around the house"

Exactly- her and her husband agree.  What part of that are you not understanding?  If they *both* agree on how the house should run, who are you to say that the husband is making her a doormat.

Is it really that hard to understand that there are ambitious home makers that want to take care of things?

Damn, if I didn't work I would feel like a lazy bum if I expected my hubby to do much.  As is, we split everything 50/50 because we both work full time. 

So, answer this- if we both work 8+ hours a day (gone for 10+ hours from the house) and split the work 50/50, and I quit my job and stay home for those hours instead, what should he have to do?  We currently have about 2 hours a night to get stuff done.  That is 20 hours A WEEK combined during the week.  So, by your thinking, even though I now have 50 hours to be home, I shouldn't do by myself what both of us did in 20 hours?  That just doesn't make sense to me.........

To look at even another way.  Say we combined do house chores during that 20 hours at night during the week and we each spend 6 hours per day on house chores on the weekend (which, I doubt anyone's household does, and I don't currently do...but, we'll pretend...).  That is 20 hours during the week + 24 during the weekend..... 44 hours total.  (hmmm...that sounds better than the 50 that I currently do......)

So, by the woman working full time during the week and doing *everything*, it benefits the household.  What happens is that nights and weekends will then become open for the family to actually LIVE and not just work on chores.

Sorry to add logic to this whole debate 

Sorry to add logic to this whole debate

That logic was greatly needed!  I don't mind that Jac there didn't apologize.  He demonstrated exactly the attitude that I can't bring myself to understand. 

I am going to spice things up here a bit and go one step further from saying not only am I not a doormat, but any man who is the sole provider for his family, working more than eight hr days, and is splitting the housework, is a doormat (or p-whipped, whichever you prefer). 

Staying at home full time with kids (the kids part is the huge one) is an extremely difficult job but it is definitely not without its rewards.  I would also say that in a lot of ways it isn't harder than a lot of jobs and I know for a fact it isn't harder than running your own business ( I have some experience to draw from there).  Sure, I have a lot on my plate, but I usually don't have the deadlines, and coworker pressures and stresses that a lot of other jobs have.  I am very proud of what I do.  I consider myself an ambitious home maker and treat raising my children as the most important job out there.

I am also a bit of a control nut when it comes to my own environment.  My husband has tried to help out in the past but, to tell the truth, he doesn't do it my way and therefore I would rather do it myself.  That is my choice.  My perogative.  How could this possibly make me a doormat?  My husband isn't forcing my to do anything.  We have made agreements based on how we work best together to make a happy, healthy home and maximize our time with and enjoyment of each other.  What is there to criticize?  It has been working for us for over 12 yrs now.  How many of my critics can say that?

It would be seen as someone putting family first and someone who really cares about what's best for everyone - especially by women and those men who don't have ego problems.

I think you hit the nail on the head there Martin.  You mentioned stay-at-home dads.  I happen to know a few of them in our community and they get a far different reception than you would think.  Many, not myself included, instantly think the dad must have lost his job.  How could a "real" man choose to stay home?  The real kicker here is this attitude often comes from stay-at-home moms.  I think there are ego problems across the board but I think women are usually the ones doing themselves the greatest disservice.

I myself harbor resentment toward acquiring the attitude that I am somehow deficient in my contributions because I am "Just" a stay-at-home mom.  I don't believe in my heart that I could be doing anything more important for myself and family right now but still feel lacking due to the reception I get from others.  People talk the talk about how important raising a family is but don't walk the walk when interacting with home makers in general. 

In the end, each family decides how it will be run. Both my hubby and I work full time (my parents watch our daughter while I work) so we share household duties 50/50. However, if I stayed at home, there is no way that I would expect my hubby to do 50% of the housework. I would expect him to do things that I couldn't do (like change the oil in the cars (well, that's a bad example since I could actually do that) or plow the snow....actually, that's a bad example too..) but I wouldn't expect him to do 50% of the work.

That's pretty much how we do it.

We did have a time when I was managing the group homes for developmentally disabled adults when we had a little conflict over the housework. My wife works very hard and, as with any job, it catches up to you.

I didn't want to do extra housework, as it was a regular part of my average 65 hour workweek (sometimes more), and my wife was burnt out.

So we made a decree that Sundays were days off (we picked Sundays because of our faith, but any other day would work as well): we bought paper plates, and did NO housework on Sundays. Meals were things that required no effort to prepare (frozen pizzas, casseroles made during the week, etc). It worked and has become somewhat of a tradition.

I was managing the group homes for developmentally disabled adults

I was a care giver at DDA homes while in college.  Boy is that good experience to have before becoming a parent!  Not only do you get to see how trying it is to manage care for these people and their home, but you also get an education about the effects of birth defects and have a better idea of what you can and can't handle should your child have one of these impairments.  I can certainly understand why you wouldn't want to do housework after a day on that job!

When I hear someone say "the guy who works full time should come home and help share the domestic responsibilities with the stay at home mom" I can't help but feel like they're patronizing the stay at home mom.

I think most people would probably agree that my wife probably couldn't do my day job as well as I can do it.  So why would someone think I could do the domestic jobs as well as my wife?  My wife is a domestic goddess. Things run smoothly because of the way she does things.  When someone gets on me for not doing more at home I can't help but read that as saying "Look, any schmoe can do what your wife is doing so go in there and help her."

Sure, I could technically cook dinner twice a week or do many of the other things she does. But I would never be able to do most of them anywhere near as well.  Even little things like vacuuming.  Sure, I could do it.  It would probably take twice as long and not be done nearly as well and there'd be toys and crap stuck in there but I could do it.  To what end though?  My wife's cooking is good enough that she could be a professional at it.  Her decorating skills are outstanding.  She makes our house a real home. 

Being a homemaker isn't "easier".  But it IS lower impact.  It's a trade-off -- you're always on call but the day to day stress is generally less.  My wife's focus is on our home and family which helps make our home a real sanctuary for our family.  My focus is on ensuring our family has the means to live at the level we like. That's high impact.  One day I might be having to deal with problematic employee, the next day I might be doing an radio interview (like tomorrow morning at 10:30am and then another radio interview iwth Arnie Arnesen in the afternoon in between contracts, lawyers, project status, coding, etc.).  The point being, it's a choice.  8 hours of homemaking isn't necessarily the same as 8 hours of running a business (let alone 12).

But sure, I could do some of what she does, badly. In a typical week I work around 60 hours.  During crunch time that goes up to 75 to 80 hours.  That's like working two full time jobs.  And sometimes I only work 40 hours a week (not bloody often).  When you add in the time of getting ready for the day, sleep, showering, eating, driving to work that leaves me with about 18 hours per week of not working and that's during non-crunch time (during crunch time free time and sleep get cut).   So sure, I could use those 18 hours per week doing the wash.  Or I could spend them with my wife and children or (gasp) playing a video game or some other recreational activity.

Luckily, my wife and I have the same priorities.  She LIKES being in charge of the domestic affairs. And she's really good at it.  And it has allowed me to focus more on things that generate income for our family.  But my wife gets patronized by working couples as if she's a doormat (despite their willingness to try to take advantage of the fact she's home during the day when it comes to THEIR needs). 

I can definitely see where Jill is coming from.  I don't look at stay at home moms as doormats.  I think Jill is right, guys who come home from work and split up all the chores are p-whipped.  

Draginol: I was with ya until here:

I think Jill is right, guys who come home from work and split up all the chores are p-whipped.

My husband likes to give me a break . . . it is a way for him to show affection and show that he cares. I spend soooo much time with the kids and so when my husband comes home from work, he will take them off my hands by playing or otherwise engaging them or giving them a bath, or just taking them with him to go pick up a movie. (When he's not deployed) he takes out the trash, takes care of the yard, and issues with the minivan. If I look exhausted and the carpet needs vacuuming, he does it.

I take my job as general manager of the family (like my title?) very seriously, but I welcome his willingness to sacrifice a bit of the free time he has to make my life a little bit easier. I am not contending that the arrangement you and your wife have or the one that Jill and her husband have is wrong . . . considering your (and Jill's husband's) hours, I think your arrangement is a wonderful way to make what family time that is available stress free and enjoyable.

What I am saying is that my man comes home from work with my best interests in mind . . . I don't call that p-whipped . . . I call it love.

Texas, your situation isn't "splitting all of the chores".  Your husband taking the kids off your hands or doing a few things here and there to give you a break makes sense and I don't think that was what Draginol was talking about and I know it wasn't what I was referring to.  What I am talking about is when a man works a grueling 8hr day, has traffic on top of that, the wife works at her own pace and spends some of the day on leisure, then the man comes home and starts doing half of the stuff around the house.  I see that as p-whipped.

I think women's lib has gone to an extreme.  So many men now go over board with what they think they should do to "help out".  If both work full time, they should split the work at home evenly.  If they don't, they shouldn't.  I am definitely not saying that a guy shouldn't give his wife a break once in a while.  My husband will take over getting dinner and helping with the kids if I am sick or had a really bad day (as long as he didn't also have a really bad day).

Texas, you describe a loving team.  I bet that if your husband comes home looking exhausted or stressed out, you don't just unload the kids on him.  However, if you do unload the kids on him when you aren't stressed out and he is and you just feel he owes you a break, that is a problem.  I get the impression you are talking about mutual respect and care for your family.  That is what I have at my home but people seem to think I am a door mat and my husband just "has it made".  These same people who judge me this way constantly bicker about who does more around their house.  I don't see them as a good source to judge

I definately agree that you're not a doormat. As far as "splitting the chores", we've done that off and on in different situations to varying degrees of success and failure. For the majority of the time we've been married, we have either both worked or both been in school. During those times, we both worked around the house as well. In fact, my husband has probably done more work around the house than I have, even during the times that I wasn't working.

Reason #1--He is more domestic than I am, and he enjoys doing things around the house. I did not learn how to do many "domestic" type things when I was growing up. We have talked several times over the years about him being a stay at home parent (when we have children, and when he is no longer in the military).
Reason #2-- As a housewife, I have been pretty pathetic. For years I struggled with depression, and when I was in the talons of the icy beast, or in the midst of panic attacks, I was incapable of doing much of anything. This does not mean that I was right, or that I was lazy. It's not that I didn't do things merely because I didn't feel like it, but because I could not make myself do anything--getting out of bed was an accomplishment! My husband was willing and able to step in and take over many of the tasks I should have been doing. Not too many men would have stayed through everything he's been through, but he is a real MAN, and he is NOT whipped or a doormat, although at times I'm sure even he has felt that way.

I can understand the sentiment that WHICHEVER partner in a relationship does everything is a doormat, but things are not always what they seem to the outside observer and sometimes there are reasons.

Just my two cents...

LadyCleve, good point but I think if one partner is truly doing "everything" for too long, the relationship will eventually fail.  I have been witness to this situation on a few occasions.  It does, however, depend on the individuals involved and their own circumstances but if one partner percieves it as having to do all of the work, there is bound to be resentment at some point.  We had neighbors a few years back who ended up divorcing because the wife was so depressed all of the time that she considered it a major achievement to get out of bed and get dressed (like you mentioned).  The problem with that came after a year or two.  Her husband finally couldn't take being the soul income earner and caregiver for the entire family (they have two children).  They divorced, he got the kids, they split their assets and hopefully she is seeking help.

Do you think your husband would be happy with that situation for long?  I can understand it being a short term solution but not a long term one.  I would be happy with my current arrangement for whatever amount of time needed.  I know my husband feels the same way.  The important thing though is that you are honest with yourself and with your partner about what you need in order to be happy.  Every family has to make compromises and every family has different challenges that require unique solutions.

 

Lady Cleve's husband is SPC nbs and I think it is pretty likely that he meant it when he said, "till death do us part"
Loyalty is not something I think the good lady worries about.
I have done the stay at home dad thing and it is an ass kicker! Before I came back on active duty we managed a
small apt complex, and that was the only work i did for the 3 months to get my clearance issues dealt with.
With a toddler in hand anything other than caring for them is a major evolution. I can cook, I can do laundr....,
But when I had the boys in the evenings after work, when there mom worked evenings; it was often pizza night.
Stay at home parents have a more than full time job and anyone who says different can KMA.