I think all these attempts to “prove” the Bible or any part of Christian faith by appealing to worldly matters are futile, and will only tire the person out and cause friction. (Not that it doesn’t make for an interesting discussion, mind.) KFC said on the other thread that “the whole Christian way is a matter of the heart.” I completely agree with this, but KFC, you’re carrying on as if it’s not a matter of the heart, but rather a matter of proving one’s belief to others until others agree or change their mind.

I couldn't agree more Andy (including the part about it making interesting discussion). That is why I started the other thread about the bible. But I always discuss matters of religion in respect to opinion and belief rather than right and wrong because it is a matter of heart and a passionate one at that.

The original Hebrew says "A son of God." Just one example of how the scriptures were edited to say what some people wanted them to say.

What scripture are you quoting? I use the Hebrew.

I completely agree with this, but KFC, you’re carrying on as if it’s not a matter of the heart, but rather a matter of proving one’s belief to others until others agree or change their mind.

I don't think anymore than anyone else. Or if you think that way....maybe it's because I'm more convinced of this than you are of your belief? Not sure. But I am absoultely convinced....because I have seen God and God at work not only in my life but in the lives of many others.

It's sort of like the disciples when they told Thomas...we have seen the Lord. He didn't believe them until he met face to face with God himself. Before that the woman who were the first to see Christ and the empty tomb ran to tell the others. What was their reaction? Fables. These worman are telling tall tales. And I've said countless times....I'm not trying to convince only give what I see. I'm a witness just giving you what I've seen and heard. That's it.

On the Y chromosome Jill I have to get back with you. My son is a Christian Scientist....I'll ask him about it.

But I do know if you take the line of Seth and Compare to the line of Cain...you see quite a story unfold.

On the Y chromosome Jill I have to get back with you. My son is a Christian Scientist....I'll ask him about it.

No offense, but the fact that Christian precedes Scientist in you son's title leads me to believe he won't have an unbiased take on the matter.  You could do some online searching.  Just Google Y chromosome.

Here's a good, short explaination:

http://www.leicester.ac.uk/genetics/maj4/project.html

In short, after studying genetics and reading extensively on the subject, the Y chromosome can have minor mutations over generations but retains a basic DNA marker.  If all men descended from Noah and his sons (who all have the same Y chromosome), all men today would have that same DNA marker.  It has been proven they don't.

I'm not trying to convince only give what I see. I'm a witness just giving you what I've seen and heard. That's it.

You have been saying that Science has not disproved anything in the bible.  You tried to use the "proof" of the ark as an example (then asked JillUser why she didn't respond to your "proof"), then, you yourself, fell quiet when I showed the "proof" that you speak of.

Then you can't be bothered to look into the Y chromosome issues (except saying that you will ask your "Christian Scientist" son about it).

If you want to believe the bible, that is great.  that is where your spiritual path has ended, and there is nothing wrong with that.  But, don't try to "prove" things to other people who have been seeking out answers to questions left open in the bible.  Science *has* disproved parts of the bible.  That doesn't mean that the bible doesn't have truth to it, it just may mean that you have to look at it from a different view to see what it really is.

I am agnostic because I don't believe that the bible is the book of god.  I do, however, believe that it holds some great teaching and is a stretch of path in my journey to enlightenment.  I may never find the "truth" in my life, but I am not closing my eyes, either.  Christianity leaves me with more questions than it answers, so it is definitely not the end of my journey.

I don't think anymore than anyone else. Or if you think that way....maybe it's because I'm more convinced of this than you are of your belief? Not sure. But I am absoultely convinced....because I have seen God and God at work not only in my life but in the lives of many others.

I’m not trying to attack you KFC, and I don’t doubt your experience of God at all. It so happens that I completely agree with your deeper Christian convictions. The issue at hand is your stringent, and often stifling connection to the Bible. You didn’t respond to the point I was trying to make on the other post, because you missed the Amazon review that I’d mentioned. I’ll cut and paste it here, because it would be nice to hear your open and honest views regarding the verses highlighted. (Remember my original challenge to you was: How would you comfort this reviewer, whilst retaining your view that the Bible is the infallible word of God?)

You can excuse the emotive language of the reviewer, because the real point at hand is the Biblical verses, which ignite the reviewers emotive response in the first place. Here’s the review in full, which includes quotes from the book itself. (The author is called Dan Barker; and the book being reviewed is called 'Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist'. The final paragraph is the most significant) . . .


“Dan Barker, a man not afraid use his mind, tells us of his transition -out of the mental confounds of Christianity -into the nationally acclaimed freethinker he is today.

Barker says "It is interesting to read the Bible now, with new `eyesight' so to speak. I used to read all the ugly parts of the Bible, but for some reason they were invisible, even beautiful. I was taught that God was perfect, loving and righteous -so there could be no question in my mind of his character. Any apparent contradictions or ugliness could be ignored in the faith of the `mystery' of Gods ways. I'm glad those days are over."

In chapter 29 [Dear Believer], Dan wonderfully sums up the vary essence of Christianity and it's `merciful' God. Barker writes >>

"Dear Believer, You ask me to consider Christianity as the answer for my life. I have done that. I consider it untrue, repugnant, and harmful... The Biblical god is a macho male warrior. Although he said "Thou shall not kill", he ordered death for all in opposition (Exodus 32:27), wholesale drowning and mass exterminations; punished offspring to the fourth generation (Exodus 20:5); ordered babies to be smashed and pregnant women to be ripped up (Hosea 13:16), ordered a man to be put to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15.32-36), is partial to one race of people; encouraged parents to stone their sons to death for being drunkards (Deuteronomy 21.18); judged women inferior to men; is the sadist who created a hell to torture all unbelievers; created evil (Isaiah 45:7)... sent bears to devour forty-two children who teased a prophet (II Kings 2:23-24); punished people with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide; and said fathers should eat their sons (Ezekiel 5:10) Is that nice? Would you want to live next door to such a person?...Do you see why I do not respect the biblical message? It is an insulting bag of nonsense. You have every right to torment yourself with such insanity --but leave me out of it."

KFC, how do these Biblical verses, and the reviewers views, fit in with your views that the Bible is infallible, and that we cannot afford any breathing space from extreme scriptural fundamentalism? I'm not trying to catch you out here babe, I'm just honestly interested to hear your views.

I'm getting baraged with a ton of questions and forgive me if I can't answer everyone but I'm trying. I work in the CPA business and as you know it's tax season...it gets crazy and I can't be studying right now.

Back to Jill and the chromosome thing. You may discount my son because of the "Christian view" but he was selected by Tulane out of 8000 applicants and they are not a Christian University. He is studying Neuro Science for his Ph.D and is very familiar with genetics.

He said to tell you two words.....Genetic Recombination.

There is such a thing called "jumping genes" which is Transposons...(sp?). It's where chromosomes jump from one to another and how you get genetic mixing. It allows for variation and shuffling of the chomosomes. He got into sickle cell and ....lost me. He said anyone that knows anything about science would not use what you used Jill for backing up your view. There are things you could use he said but this wouldn't be one...gets discounted very easily if you know anything about science....and I don't.

He said you cannot go back to trace this to Noah...so you're right there. The DNA is messed up he said. He also said that we only use a small percentage of our genes and not the majority.

He also said....so I take back what I said earlier....that Lucy was false. Basically what happened is that bones were put together from a large area of dug up bones to make a half human half ape being. I shouldn't have mentioned this because it was vague in my memory and I'm not science minded to boot. My son did not inherit my genes in this area...!!

Andy

Boy I wouldn't want to follow that type of God either. But this is not the God I follow. Yes ugly things did happen and God did call for the deaths of the rebellious. He said rebellion was as the sin of witchcraft. But he's taking things way out of context here. I will get back to you on each point as soon as I can. God is all thru scripture the God of second chances. When you read in context God is constantly warning and giving them chance after chance. And the very things in there show that scripture is true because if you are trying to make yourself look good....you take out the bad parts.

Like Thomas....the very first disciple didn't believe. Peter....a giant of the Faith started out denying Christ. Paul another giant was murdering Christians. Then he stopped and he wasn't believed at first. He was anti-Christian.

The resurrection appearances were made to the women first. The men didn't believe them because women's testimony meant nothing. Christ was always elevating women. A woman was fashioned out of the side of Adam...not his toe....and not his head. His side!! God made it clear they were to be equal. But he had different roles for them. Men cannot bear children. In that case....women are greater than men.

I could go on and on. Abraham, Noah, David. All screwed up. All this to show they were human but still great men of God. David was called a man after God's own heart. Why? Because after he committed some heinous crimes he went to God on his face. God still held him accountable (death of his son etc) but forgave him. Rahab, a prostitute is in the lineage of Christ...go figure. God is all loving and forgiving. Go figure. That's not what this guy wants to tell you tho. He has an agenda. He's on the other side. Like I said....obstacles.

I think that guy SC is also an obstacle...a diversion to get people not to go to God. We all will be held accountable...by our words we will be justified and by our words we will be condemned.

Who were the first man and woman created by God?

Must not have seen this LW.

Adam and Eve.

Who was the character clearly described (no matter what translation you use) as the "son of God" other than Jesus Christ?

I'm not understanding this question. There are the "sons" of God mentioned in Genesis. This is thought to be the line of Seth. But would have to have a reference before I could answer this. I'm thinking Daniel may have a reference also but not sure if that's what you mean?

it never ceases to amaze me how many Christians do NOT know them, they are easily found in the Bible

I agree. There is so much bible illiteracy it's not funny. Especially in this country when every home had a bible as it's sole book and was also the tool for learning how to read and write. I think it's sad when I see Jay Leno out on the street asking easy bible 101 questions and the answers are so out there.

I'm sorry I missed you the first time. Because I love to answer questions.....it's the teacher in me!!

Science *has* disproved parts of the bible.

Can you give me specifics. I know of none. And I'm not trying to be smart. I just have never heard of any. Don't you think this would be "big" news?

Then you can't be bothered to look into the Y chromosome issues (except saying that you will ask your "Christian Scientist" son about it).

First of all I think I answered that in #115 and second....asking my son is looking into it. Not everyone has a friend of family member that "Really" knows what they are talking about. He's a scientist. He's a researcher. He's a lab rat. He lives there. He eats, breathes and talks this stuff. He is now studying epilepsy and today is giving epilepsy to mice. To me he is much better than a book. I can't help it if you don't like my source.

I am agnostic because I don't believe that the bible is the book of god.

To say you don't "belive" doesn't make it not the book of God. It only says that you don't believe it. I may say I don't believe Japan exists. It doesn't make it so. I've never seen Japan. So I guess it doesn't exist.

Christianity leaves me with more questions than it answers, so it is definitely not the end of my journey

I'm glad you are still on your journey. I am also. I actually get angry when I think of all the "men of God" out there that are not answering questions for people like you. I see alot of abuse in the clergy, regardless of group...they are not doing their jobs. I believe they will answer to God for this. But on the other hand there are some out there....but it will take a search to find one.

I'm not sure where you are getting your answers from, but if I wanted to know about Texas....I'd ask someone that's been there. I wouldn't ask a Canadian. If you have any questions about Christianity you need to ask someone who loves God and his word like I do. Not some nominal or said faith only Christian.

God did call for the deaths of the rebellious.

Wasn't Jesus rebellious?

I may say I don't believe Japan exists. It doesn't make it so. I've never seen Japan. So I guess it doesn't exist.

You've seen pictures of Japan, haven't you? You've seen pictures of Japanese people, haven't you? Maybe you've seen some in person. I've never seen pictures of heaven or hell; have you? I've never seen angels or demons; have you?

BTW, "teacher", this

I've never seen Japan. So I guess it doesn't exist.

should be one sentence. I think it's sad when teachers make errors in English.

should be one sentence. I think it's sad when teachers make errors in English

Actually, it is fine the way she wrote it. Both sentences have a noun and a verb and each can stand alone. So what are you talking about?

She is a Bible teacher by the way. So stop being so disrespectful. She never claimed to have all the answers. But she has taken the time to share what she knows.

I think its "sad" when people can't debate topics without getting catty.

I think its "sad" when people can't debate topics without getting catty.

Thanks Tova. I'm not an English Teacher. I think when one loses an argument they feel they must attack the person.

You've seen pictures of Japan, haven't you?

You are so missing the point.

I've never seen angels or demons; have you?

Every day. They are clothed in human flesh. How's that for English?

You've seen pictures of Japanese people, haven't you? Maybe you've seen some in person. I've never seen pictures of heaven or hell; have you?

Ok think about this. I've seen pictures of Japenese people. I've seen pictures of Japan. I've seen pictures of Heaven and Hell. So what? I should believe it because I've seen pictures?

So going with your logic, you must also believe in Heaven and Hell since I'm quite sure you've seen the pics. If I draw you a picture of Jesus and you see it, then you have to believe in him as well. Right?

He said to tell you two words.....Genetic Recombination. There is such a thing called "jumping genes" which is Transposons...(sp?). It's where chromosomes jump from one to another and how you get genetic mixing.

I am going at this one one more time and then I'm done. I do my own homework before I claim things KFC. I don't rely on the word of others. My husband told me what he thought on the matter and I could have just said "My genius husband said_______" and use that as my arguement but I preferred to look into things myself.

KFC, if you or your son really looked at what genetic recombination really is you would not have used that as an arguement. "Jumping genes" in genetic recombination occur only between homologous genetic material. There is no X chromosome marker that is homologous with a Y chromosome marker that would allow "jumping" that would result in the Y chromosome change required to make a difference in the generations between Noah and the men of our century.

He said anyone that knows anything about science would not use what you used Jill for backing up your view.

Sounds like your son has a knack for unsubstantiated condescension like you. I'm not even sure you realize that you sound arrogant, rude and condescending. You seem like a kind person but I really don't have the energy for that kind of comment on this blog anymore. Like I said before, perhaps you should start your own thread and discuss whatever you want in whatever manner you like.