Oh, BTW, in building our dream house we are providing work for a whole lot of people and putting more tax dollars into our community.  We are far from the only ones to benefit.

About "fairness" as practiced in Europe.

In Germany, if you are unemployed, you receive free money from the state. That much is known.

If you own a house, they expect you to sell it and live of that money before you receive free money. Sounds fair?

But if you didn't buy a house but wasted all your money on trips to Mallorca, Disneyland, and other fun things, you receive free money.

I am not talking about the stupidity of the system encouraging people to waste money on vacations rather than invest into property. My point here is that one guy has to support himself while another guy does not, not depending on their income but only on the choices they made.

 

The American Dream has its downsides, I am sure, but if you are healthy and able-bodied I believe opportunity is all you need.

 

I read about him on a German news site. However, they just showed a picture of him and said he was a plumber, without mentioning anything about his business and taxes. In the article he was referred to as a typical McCain supporting low-life without much education.

 

Nice.

Jill, I think a lot of the negativity going on right now is due to resentment and jealousy.  I know *I* feel that.  Not necessarily that others have done well, but at the fact that it seems to be FLAUNTED in the news, just how wealthy the wealthy are, while the middle class (and below) are getting all this doomsday feedback making them fearful that they just won't be able to survive period, much less afford a vacation home or go on a European vacation.

I read an article recently on MSNBC from Newsweek that was just...disgusting...the author was compelling readers to offer sympathy and compassion for the super wealthy (who are now having to wear a $10,000 outfit more than once, just because they are worried about the economy) because they are losing not just money but oh, their identity and self-esteem. How sad.  How sad that their self-worth is tied up in lording their wealth over others and now they're worried about the security of that wealth.  Not that they'll ever have to live like a normal person, but you know, they might have to make a sacrifice or two and only live in super unbelievable luxury rather than super unbelievable incredible luxury.

I have a hard time feeling sympathy for the rich.  It's not about expecting anyone to pay or supporting tax increases so much as it's very annoying to carefully budget and have true financial concerns while listening to someone who will never have to clip coupons or put off dental work complain about how they are going to pay more in taxes all the while having more than they could ever spend.

Even though the wealthy pay an exhorbitant amount in taxes (and I'm not arguing that that's fair or correct...I believe we should be keeping our own money), the "burden" is really not on the rich.  They are fine.  The middle class, whose tax contributions get pish-poshed, actually FEEL the burden of their taxes even if the amount they are paying is less.  It's not just that it affects their lifestyle.  It can actually affect their ability to cover things like health care or retirement savings.

When gas prices go up and grocery prices go up, the rich don't need to fret.  I DO.  So, there is some resentment and jealousy there when I read about poor wealthy people and how worried they are and how much they're suffering.

I don't think it's personal toward you Jill, so much as just a seething resentment in general toward the attitudes of the wealthy in a time of financial uncertainty that threatens to crush the rest of us.

 

Do you think that all of the people that "the wealthy" care about are wealthy too?  I will tell you personally that although we are doing well financially (we've lost scary amounts in the market though), people we love, friends and family, aren't.  When the people I care about aren't doing "fine", I'm not doing fine.  Why shouldn't I be able to use my money to take care of the friends and family who were there for me all along the way?

I don't care if people can't "feel sorry" for the rich.  They don't need to.  The class warfare is a dangerous thing though.  Why do we need the government to play Robin Hood?  Why can't we come together in families and communities and make sure everyone is taken care of?

I have a friend who is battling colon cancer right now.  I would like to think that I can use my money on life saving treatment for her if need be.  If my parents need in home care or even a place to live some day, I should be able to keep my money and provide that for them.  These people have invested in me why shouldn't I be able to return the favor instead of having the government decide for me that someone else is more needy?

I didn't take anything from anyone to get what I have.  I had the same opportunities as most and fewer even than a lot.  I spent most of my life in lower to middle class.  That is why I am puzzled by this "us against them" class warfare.  We are all Americans.  We are so divided right now by class and political ideology that I seriously fear for the future of our country.

For me, this is not a topic I generally spend a lot of time thinking about, but lately it seems like I have been bombarded from all sides with it...online communities I visit, the news, friends, etc. are all talking about it. 

And what I am getting the most is complaints and fears from the wealthy.  I am sure it probably feels like to those with money that they are constantly hearing sob stories from the middle class and poor, so maybe it's more that that's what is standing out to me, but every day it's more of the same.

I think even people who don't take advantage of others, and who have worked heard to earn and build their wealth, and who are actually looking out for their fellow man (or woman) are getting this backlash because of how completely GARISH a lot of these news stories regarding the poor, suffering super wealthy. 

The media is DEFINITELY feeding this class warfare obsession.  And I personally feel like I am being sucked into it because I find myself feeling actually angry when I read these news stories, knowing that even though we are a hard-working, law-abiding, typical American family, our future is somewhat at the mercy of the whims and financial moves of others. 

 

Hello Jill, others,

 

I feel some degree of sympathy for you, you are taking a lot of hits of late.  I do have trouble with the characterization, as black and white, the notion that taxes are taking from the rich and giving to the undeserving poor.  It is a conservative Republican government that has led to record breaking deficits.  A war that costs us billions and will tax our future for decades, a willingness to spend, spend, spend, and yet try every which way to not pay the piper.  The equation is seriously out of whack.  I don't want to be taxed any more than you do, but I do think we as Americans, have an obligation to both take care of ourselves (not just our friends and family) and pay our bills.  If we can't afford billion dollar bombers and trillion dollar wars then so be it. 

It is ridiculous to claim that it is the poor who are driving us into economic disaster.  That's a sort of blame the victim game that conservatives have been playing for years.  It has worked until now.

Everyone should work hard and everyone should pay taxes.  But I am all about reducing tax breaks for the rich.  It disgusts me the quarterly profits of big oil when we are in such hurt as a nation.  It disgusts me that CEOs are getting golden parachutes while their companies are going down in flames. 

If there has been a class war, it has been those in power making it harder and harder for those without power to make a decent living, have health care, and enjoy our American dream.

Be well.

 

Well said Jill.  It sounds like you and Brad are alot like my husband and I.  We went without for many years trying to save for our future and we built a business together as well. 

 We lived in the basement of our home while he built it himself on weekends and nights.  I lived two years in the basement (no mortgage) with three babies while I saw friends and relatives live in brand new cute decorated homes.  It didn't seem right, (and about killed me) but years later while they are all struggling now with two mortgages on their homes we own two nice homes debt free.  But it was a sacrifice of many years to get to this point.  

 I'd hate to see Obama waltz in and take from us to give to my friends and family whom I saw go to fancy restaurants while I was making chocolate chip cookies out of a toaster oven. 

you know what my husband says about this attitude?  Go make your own oil.  Go start your own oil business.  Or figure a way around using their oil. 

I don't see you, KFC, or you, Jill, crying to everyone about how hard times are for you.  That's what I find crass and divisive.   

I never put anything in black and white.  Obama is the one saying he wants to decide who has more than they "need" and spread the wealth to those he figures needs it more.

This sounds a lot like "refund adjustment".  Reducing tax breaks = raising taxes.  A tax break just means you're taking less of their money.  You aren't giving them anything.  If you are reducing what you're not taking that means you're increasing what you're taking.

And what would those profits be?  Do you know how dangerous a field oil drilling and production is?

Does it disgust you that 12yr old actors make millions for playing pretend or their adult counterparts not only make millions but then use their celebrity to tell the masses what candidate is going to be best for the middle class?  Could a CEO get away with spending their money to influence people in such a way?...nope.

I don't think it's right that some get their money from a company whether or not the company can afford it.  I am sick to death of people using the term CEO as if it were synonomous with the devil.  I know a lot of CEOs.  While their punch-in/punch-out, leave work at work employees have real time off, they never get away.  They have the wait of the company on their backs 24/7.  They should get pretty well compensated for that kind of committment.

Just as there are a lot of CEOs who are greedy and crooked, there are a lot of people who just leach off from others and then cry poor me.  They don't sacrifice, work hard or take risks but expect to get paid.  Somehow such people feel they are owed a wage for just showing up every day.

How did those CEOs get where they are?  I don't think people think much about that either.  They probably just were in some good old boys club or knew someone at the top or inherited their position, right?  Of course they didn't earn it by taking positions of immense responsibility risking getting canned if their decisions ended up being the wrong thing for their company.  I'm sure none of them took responsibility for others on their way up.

 

 

Hardly a Christian concept. You're not kickin for Christ; you're kicking him in the ass.

Sorry, but I am so tired of hearing this crap.  Oil companies pay billions and billions in taxes, so what if they make a profit?  That's the point of business, to make a profit.  They don't owe you anything.

It's not ridiculous at all.  The mortgage crisis is based on people buying houses they couldn't afford.

Crass?  Really?  I didn't get any sympathy from anyone when my family was eating bean soup and cornbread for 3 days a week, making our own clothes, chopping our own wood in order to heat our house that my parents built with their own hands.  But I didn't cry about hard times when I had them.  I'm not crying now because I'm not having a hard time but I'm not apologizing either!

 

 

TW...did you not read what I said?  I said I lived in the basement with three babies making food out of a toaster oven because I had NO stove.  Three kids in one bedroom, us in another...for TWO years.  That was two cribs and a twin bed in one room.  Then on top of that we had our newlywed brother and sister-in-law move in with us for one year.  They slept in the top story (this was a cape) with no insulation at first as the house was just framed.  They had no heat and when it snowed the snow would come in the vent and land on them while they slept.  Not much better than sleeping outside. 

I've written about those times we made so little money I had maybe $30-40 for a week's worth of groceries.  One year I had absolutely NO money for Christmas and the local church gave us $500.  Don't tell me I didn't go thru hard times...and no I never cried about it then nor would I now.  I appreciate each and everything we've got.  I know how rich we are in this country.  I dare not complain. 

We've been there TW.   We paid our price.  Now it's your turn.  We know what it's like.  From what you've written, believe me, you have it alot better than I did.