Reply By: Mr_Frog Posted: Thursday, April 15, 2004
You said:
"if Jesus was to be considered half man and half God, wouldn't he then have sin, since he was still partly man?"

I say:
Let's see, how can I explain this best?
Your question implies man IS sin.
Man is not sin, man is tempted by sin, and being the humans we are, give in.
Jesus was a man, a man full of the holy spirit, son of God, from birth he was intrigued
by God and his kingdom, as a child he went to church, not only to worship, but to learn
He put his life in Gods hands and listened whole hearted.

You said:
"I take it that the tree was put there as a test to man..." "...wouldn't he have forgiven Man at some point for a mistake that had been made at his creation?"

I say:
The tree was a test, we must all be tested to "prove" our worthiness
When we purchase a watch, do we test it, and if it doesn't work, throw it away
or do we rush to put it on, hurry out the door and take a chance on it working
when we check to see if we are late?

God created us in his image, he didn't make a clone of himself, he gave us free will
one of our many blessings. Would you feel good about yourself if you were good simply
because you didn't know evil? When we finish a hard task, are we more happy that the
job is done, or that we endured the hard work to finish it?

God hadn't punished every person for Adams mistake, think about this.
What changed? We simply could no longer enter the garden, but we gained knowledge
of good and evil, we were blessed with children, etc.

The reason people go to hell are based on themselves, not Adam eating the apple.
Adam just made the choice for all of us to have the ability to be good or bad
by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Next I'm sure you'll say "then why not give us all the 'tree' test?"
This is part of Gods plan, a good way to get answers is to not question,
but wait for the answer, we may not know now, but he had a reason.

like I said, we feel better about ourselves when we endure hardship and come
out on top, God knew this would be the best way to find chosen people, people
worthy of sacrificing his only son. He knows we will mess up at first, but he
relies on the fact that good is better than evil. It's easy to not eat the apple, it's
harder to know the power it can give and not eat it, and in the end, knowing and
not doing makes us stronger than not knowing.

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Reply By: JillUser Posted: Thursday, April 15, 2004

You said:
"Why can't one ask God directly for forgiveness?"

I say:
First you must know that God is perfect, without sin.
In fact, he is so perfect, he can't even have sin around him.
Quite possibly for the fact that his instinct is to destroy it.
We see something we don't like, we erase it.

However;

Another side of Gods perfection is his love.
Hence God forgives us of our sins by creating a sacrifice, his only begotten son.
If you ask God to forgive you (supposing he could hear our sinfull hearts),
he'll tell you he has, by sacrificing his sons life. Turning away as the people of
our generation drive nails into his hands. Jesus is a part of God, so to ask God
directly is to look past his created son and say "yeah, but can't YOU forgive me?"
Ignorant to the fact that he has, and told you he has in John 3:16.

You said:
"This person prays to God for forgiveness and guidance but this person just doesn't believe in his heart that Jesus was actually the son of God"

I say:
If you know the father, you know the son
If you know the son, you know the father.
If you accept the father, you accept the son
If you don't accept the son, how can you accept the father?

Jesus being "The son of God" is in the bible time and time again.
Can one get into heaven by believing half the bible?

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Reply By: JillUser Posted: Thursday, April 15, 2004

You said:
"I do have a problem with the thought that someone can be a ruthless murderer but then decide that Jesus is their saviour and will then go to heaven."

I say:
Forgiveness is a painful process, don't just assume they wake up one day and say "Jesus forgive me,"
and all is said and done. The ones that murder, or commit any sin for that matter, enter a deep
DEEP depression, feel loads of sadness and pain, and struggle to even TRY to ACCEPT that Jesus DOES forgive them.
Struggle to grasp the concept that WE placed a crown of thorns on Gods son, beat him and spit in his
face, and with every sin, great or small, we commit, is another slap across his cheek.

No, simply asking for forgiveness is not what does it. Feeling remorse and repenting first, then asking
someone so great to look upon someone so small and say "I forgive you," and truly mean it is how it's
done.

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Reply By: greywar Posted: Thursday, April 15, 2004

You said:
"How would any of us here on Joeuser have the slightest clue about the decision process of an omnipotent and omniscient being of any disposition?"

I say:
By reading the bible.

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Reply By: 6969jimbo6969 Posted: Thursday, April 15, 2004

You said:
"When the Nazarene genius said to his disciples, possibly including his lover, Mary, "

I say:
Your choice of words is questionable.

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Reply By: Sherye Hanson Posted: Friday, April 16, 2004

You said:
"However, you would see the world and God differently."

I say:
VERY differently

You said:
"As for Hell--it is separation from God. The eternal flames are just a metaphor. Heaven is being in God's presence."

I say:
Yes, it is separation from God. However, the rest is not a metaphor.
Remember the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:24

"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. "

I just read this one today, God, thankfully has allowed me to share it. :]

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Reply By: MadPoet41 Posted: Friday, April 16, 2004

You quoted:
""So I go on living, learning and being thankful in the ways that fit me. I tend to think that God will judge me on those merits.""

You said:
"My philosophy is very much like your own. Are you gonna go to Hell? Ever? I don't think so. Because you strike me as a good and very honest person. And God will judge you on those merits."

I say:
You few with this outlook confuse me. Do you believe in God and his son or not?
You say "I live right, I may not be religious, but I do good."
Then you turn and say God will judge you based on that!
How can you not be religious and still believe God will judge you?

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Reply By: Poetmom99 Posted: Friday, April 16, 2004

You quoted:
""I am a good person. I treat others as I would have them treat me. My family means the world to me. I am respectful of my parents. I have never harmed another. I donate time and money to charity. I help friends and family whenever possible.""

You said:
"While those are all admirable qualities, it is my opinion that they alone will not get you into heaven."

I say:
Well said! Remember the rich official? Luke 18:16-34 (Another one I just read today, I'm on Luke obviously, heh)

He questioned Jesus on what it takes to get into heaven.
Jesus responded by telling him to keep the commandments, no killing, respect your parents, etc.

Then the man responded how many of you have!
"I've kept them for as long as I can remember."

There's only one thing left to do as Jesus told him.
"Sell everything you own and give it away to the poor.
You will have riches in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Sad, he walked off.

Many things many of you have said have been addressed in the bible.
Just pick it up and read.

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Reply By: Poetmom99 Posted: Friday, April 16, 2004

You quoted:
""How do you guys feel about the concept of original sin? I have known people who have had babies that were terribly ill and they were terrified because the infant hadn't been baptized yet. ""

You said:
"I beiieve that babies/children are considered pure and free from sin until they reach the "age of accountability""

I say:
Of this I currently am unsure.
I'm only on Luke as I have said, and already I have a lot of insight granted to me by the
Lord our God. Some things I am still learning, but I seem to remember being told that it
says in the bible that children are born inherently evil. I have no clue if that is true or not
but I do know that Jesus being the only way into heaven makes it hard, seeing as how I just
recently myself have "found him."

I assume God would love the infant and the fact that it didn't have much of a chance,
allow it into heaven, but who's to say we don't have a mind when we are created from
the start, we just can't remember that far back?

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Reply By: KarmaGirl Posted: Friday, April 16, 2004

You said:
To much stuff to address

I say:
Read the bible.
You mention "Buddhism with a transcendentalist twist" seemingly to sound smart
but everything you said seemed to have no merit at all. I saw no basis to your
post. I'm sorry but I just didn't follow it.

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Reply By: JillUser Posted: Friday, April 16, 2004

You said:
"Maybe if you believed that Jesus existed and he was an incredibly important teacher of how God would like us to live, it would be enough in God's eyes."

I say:
Why would you go that far, but not the extra step to believe he was the son.
Again people believing half of the bible, but not all. In the bible it says
add nothing and take nothing away from the word, so it's safe to think God
has the bible written just the way he wants it. Meaning the part where it says
Jesus is his son, over and over again, is true.

When you get to heaven to be judged you think God will say "See, he is my son, now
that I had to prove it to you with sight, you may enter?" What he will say is to the good is
"You had faith when others tore me down, my doors for you have opened now."

You said:
"I just find it almost arrogant for people to say if you don't do _______ God will send you to Hell."

I say:
Again, something I just read today
Jesus said himself, the rules religious leaders laid down were all wrong, the ONE and ONLY
rule is to follow Jesus, his teachings, and accept him into your heart as your lord and savior.
But that is much more than words, that is having good morals, like all of you claim to do, but
at the same time realizing that we are a creation of God, realizing that Jesus had died for us,
realizing that all these words are TRUE accounts of historical happenings that shape the unmade,
but preordained future.

It's not some out of this world weird science. It's life, it's the air we breath, it's simple,
Jesus came to break it down, teach us of heaven in an earthly sense. Every day language. That's
why I'm replying to these posts, to keep it real, so you all can see it's not thy and thou.
It's here and now.

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Reply By: JillUser Posted: Friday, April 16, 2004

You said:
"Maybe I will have more appreciation for my purpose having found it on my own journey rather than having accepted it because that was what I was fed from my family since birth."

I say:
Right! Nobody can be fed faith, you must aquire it on your own, through trials and tribulations.

Forgive the second post but I didn't address Mr_Frog completly:
"...wouldn't he have forgiven Man at some point for a mistake that had been made at his creation?"

That point would be when Jesus gave up the spirit on the cross.

Link hell... who even got that far? Honestly folks if you are going to take a page and a half to say something just post an article! It no longer qualifies as a "comment" at that point... *sheesh*

Link hell...?

If you're refering to me I was just replying.
It wouldn't have looked as long if I was here in time to reply individually.

Does it suits us better that you take space to comment on the comment?

When I die if it turns out that there really is a God, a Heaven, a Hell, (and all of these are as Christians describe them); then I will be happy to go to Hell.

, spoken like a true fool.

"I just find it almost arrogant for people to say if you don't do _______ God will send you to Hell. Why does it have to be so black and white? If God loves you, couldn't he take the life experiences he gave you into consideration when deciding your eternal fate?"

If there's anything I dislike, it's a dogmatic Christian, but listen guys, this is straight from the heart:

I honestly believe in what I'm saying. I know for a fact (although unfortunately ones that wouldn't hold much water syllogistically) that God and Jesus exists, and there are certain things I know about both of them, because we spend time together, and one of the things that happens when you spend time with someone is that you get to know them. I can't prove that God or Jesus exists, anymore than I could prove to you that any other friend of mine exists. But I notice you don't question the existance of any other friends- perhpas because the truth is not quite so relevant in those instances.

Karmagirl, you're smart and creative, but you sounds jaded and dogmatic in your own way. You remind me of an old, Christian lady who's having difficulty coping with a world whose ideas about religion are changing. Don't stick to your guns, but down the guns and pick up a book. Maybe we can learn something. And before anybody accuses me of hypocrisy, no, I'm not being dogmatic. When you know something by personal experience, it takes an acknowledgement of insanity to disprove it.

JillUser- I respect you a ton and I don't understand why you can't grasp the issue. For a Christian, Hell is eternal torture. So for you or anybody else to say things like "God will judge me for my merits" (although all of them are worth nothing according to any widely accepted scripture- i.e. torah, bibe, qua'ran) or "I'll be happy to go to Hell" or even "this life is already Hell" is just plain offensive. It's like you're laughing as you think of Christians watching you as you pull a lever that would lead you to a horrible death. What if Christians are wrong? Does that make it right to make fun of them? It's not like being Christian's implies inferiority.

I guess what I'm saying is... please, have a little respect.

~Dan

Aww psyfect, no reply to my heretic comments? I feel sooo unloved. (And I read it all)
I say whatever you need in your life, go for it.
Some people need RIGIDTY in religion to keep them TRUE to themselves and others. We have Holy Fanatics who obey down to the last puncuation, we have arm-chair worshipers who can't even remember the last time they had been to church..and everything in between. Who's more right?


Even bigger question: Who here practices what they preach? Don't type it and tell me, humans are great at being decietful to ourselves and others..but ask yourself, do you live whatever it is you worship? To HELL (figuratively speaking) to anyone who thinks they know more..including myself.

"To HELL (figuratively speaking) to anyone who thinks they know more..including myself. "

Does that mean "if I don't know then nobody does?"

~Dan

Amen Jilluser. I have raised four children that way also and they are pretty nice people if I may say so myself. I'm at peace with myself to know that they will be judged on their merits.

No no Dan, quite the opposite. Nobody can know how Jill should feel upon her religion and what she finds to be fullfilling, faith wise, except for herself. And when I say that, I mean nobody else. Including me! As in, my rantings are just that, rantings..like everybody elses. We can make suggestions, but it's beneath us to Tell someone else What and How they should worship, right? I hope I'm not alone in that. heh

"We can make suggestions, but it's beneath us to Tell someone else What and How they should worship, right? "

It's beneath us? What does that mean?

~Dan

Dan, in response to your reply #51, I refute fervantly that I was disrespectful to anyone. I was talking about my own beliefs. You quoted out of context. I said that I tend to believe God will judge me on my merits. I even said that I have respect for anyone who lives by their own religious convictions. I know christians think that their way is the only way. That is fine for you. You can all quote the bible or any other written text you want. It won't make a bit of difference in whether or not I am enlightened to Jesus being the son of God.

I think it is silly to not believe Jesus existed. There is plenty of evidence that he did. However, you are arrogant if you think you can prove to anyone that he is the son of God. You are also arrogant if you think you can prove to anyone that he isn't the son of God. This subject is all about faith. The bible doesn't prove anything to anyone who doesn't first accept that it is the word of God. It is nothing more than an old book of stories that reflect the time otherwise.

One of the reasons I just don't think that accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour is the only thing God will accept is this scenario:

If someone has never been introduced to the bible, has never even heard the name Jesus, they would go to hell. They believe that they had a creator. They are appreciative of the life they were given and pray in their own way to "God". Why would this person be sent to eternal torture in the afterlife?

I'll go another step, you can talk about sacrifice for our sins all you want, it still doesn't make any sense to me why God would have to send his son to Earth and be brutally tortured to death. Why? What did it prove? He died for our sins..........what does that really mean? If the bible is God's word for us to live by, why couldn't he just explain what he wanted us to do? Why would he have to prove anything to us?

Noone answered what baptism meant to Jesus. John baptized Jesus. Was it just a traditional Jewish cleansing ritual that became linked as a symbol of letting Jesus wash our sins away?

quote]"No one answered what baptism meant to Jesus. John baptized Jesus. Was it just a traditional Jewish cleansing ritual that became linked as a symbol of letting Jesus wash our sins away?"


The most logical statement I've read on the subject states that Jesus’ submission to John’s baptism of repentance was His mature self-dedication to His mission of self-identification with sinners which in due course would involve the cross. In other words, a visible sign that He was ready and willing to start down the path that would bring the plan of God to its fruition with His death and resurrection.

"I'll go another step, you can talk about sacrifice for our sins all you want, it still doesn't make any sense to me why God would have to send his son to Earth and be brutally tortured to death."

That's the price for the redemption of billions of people, Jill. If he lived an easy life and died by lethal injection, the sacrifice would have been meaningless. The torture and brutal death- as well as the complete and utter rejection during life- is to show the extent of God's love for us in the way that humans understand best: suffering.

"quote]If the bible is God's word for us to live by, why couldn't he just explain what he wanted us to do?"

He did... I'm not sure why you think it (the bible) doesn't.



"Noone answered what baptism meant to Jesus. John baptized Jesus. Was it just a traditional Jewish cleansing ritual that became linked as a symbol of letting Jesus wash our sins away?"

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Jesus came not only to die but to set an example for a righteous life. Although He had no need for cleansing, every Christian does. In order to set the perfect example, He had to go through the steps that every Christian has to follow.

~Dan

Sorry guys, like I said, still doesn't ring true to me. Not buying that our omnipotent God had to prove anything to us.