I just want to say that Bigdreamer and Shulamite should be deemed the preachers on the "Scurvvy Buttercup".....

They're awfully good at it.

Trinitie

Why can't one ask God directly for forgiveness? Why is accepting Jesus as one's saviour the end all be all? Shulamite, when you talk about Paul having been a murderer, I have to admilt I regard that differently than a murderer today. You are talking about a time before the teachings of Jesus. The world was a much different place. I just can't personally make that leap that someone can be so evil as to brutally murder then change course and be deemed holy because he lay his sins at Jesus' feet.

Okay, so, let's say a person leads a good life. Is kind and generous, selfless and humble. This person prays to God for forgiveness and guidance but this person just doesn't believe in his heart that Jesus was actually the son of God. He doesn't believe the bible was actually the words of God but merely teachings of the time. He believes that Jesus was a very important teacher who gave mankind good guidelines on how to live a good life. That person just doesn't feel in their heart that they have been shown the divinity in Jesus. So that person goes to Hell, right?

I've always thought that Heaven and Hell exist as dreams that we have on our deathbed. It's been said that the last thing that you think about before you fall asleep, is the basis of your dream. If you are on your deathbed, then you would probably be thinking about whether you are about to enter heaven or hell. If you truly feel like you have lived a good life, then you will undoubtedly dream about going to heaven, and that dream will be your after life. If you think you have lived a sinful life, then you will lie there worrying about hell, and consequently dream of hell. While this doesn't work for all instances, it does lay the theory that I believe each person chooses the destiny of their afterlife.

Since you feel like you have lived an honest and good life, I don't see why you wouldn't be jammin with Hendrix by the pearly gates.

I see nothing in BigDreamer's response that invalidates the "fire and brimstone", rather she clearly outlined the plan to avoid such. It is all a matter of delivery I guess.

Of course you don't. I didn't mean her. For the regular bloggers, we are pretty familiar with the people who are characterized as the 'fire and brimstone' set. These people can often be found ranting and raving, but usually on their own blogs, or on other people's blogs who would put up with that kind of stuff. These people rarely want to have a discussion, but would rather spend a lot of energy hurling ambiguous quotes from the Bible and attack people's beliefs without hesitation. I rather appreciate learning from people like BigDreamer, even though it's not my own religion.

How would any of us here on Joeuser have the slightest clue about the decision process of an omnipotent and omniscient being of any disposition? Most of us can't even tell what *Muggaz* is thinking! I think Jill has a perfectly valid idea. I just live my life and what deal witht he consequences of it in the afterlife if there is one.

I logged off for hours and returned.... wow so much to answer. Long responses are just ignored, too. Skimmed mostly. I think I'll try to answer these questions in an article of my own so it won't get ignored/skimmed. This is so important and I don't think one can take it lightly, however one believes. I'll make the title "to answer your questions..." Oh, and by the way... I'm not one of those annoying people who thinks they know it all. There's a lot I don't know. But there is a lot I've studied. I'm a faithful reader and I absorb philosophy and the like. I read trade books and non-fiction extensively. So I dont know it all... but I'll tell you what I believe/think/and do know for sure...

"I do have a problem with the thought that someone can be a ruthless murderer but then decide that Jesus is their saviour and will then go to heaven. That just doesn't make sense to me. I have problems with the idea of heaven and hell in general. What does it really mean for Jesus to take your sins?"

There's so much here to answer, as Shulamite said, but I'll just stick to this one problem and hope it helps.

The bible makes it pretty clear that what we do has nothing to do with heaven and hell. Our righteousness is as filthy rags, says the bible. No man comes to the father but by me, said Jesus. (In Hebrew, it's gender neutral.) Doing good is just something a Christian does because it's what God wants him to do and a Christian generally wants to please God. Also, on judgement day, it sounds very uncomfortable as God lists all of your sins one by one... so it seems worth it to be good so as to avoid as much discomfort as possible.

When Jesus "takes your sins," what it refers to is a verse and the bible that says "the wages of sin is death." Death in that case means judgement- a physical death, and then eternity in Hell. Jesus paid the price that you owe for your sins, and when you allow him, he will take away your sins so that you no longer owe anything. And not just all your past sins- he takes away your sins from the past, and the future. Not bad, eh? Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Gotta love God.

~Dan

If everyone thought along these lines ("I live the way that suits me."), it would be utter chaos. Because everyone thinks that they are a basically good person. Just ask alot of people in prison or who engage in illegal activities fequently. They will tell you sincerely that they are good. Basically good. Too bad what they do hurts many other people, as long as it's not them and their immediate friends and family.

A lot of rapists think that there is nothing wrong with what they do, "She wanted it, for goodness sake!" They go on living, learning and being thankful in the ways that fit them.

Can I ask, what things do you debate on that aren't 'subjective'? If it's open to debate, then there is a very high chance that it has a subjective element to it.

You're arguments, in my opinion, are shallow and convenient. But then again, that's subjective and not worth debating.

And now for something completely different!!

When the Nazarene genius said to his disciples, possibly including his lover, Mary, "the kingdom of God is at hand," he very likely did not mean what most contemporary Christians receive as indoctrination about that passage. What he meant, arguably, and what makes sense to me from my study of what we can say, with all of God's gifts of wisdom and insight, actually went on in Palestine lo these many years ago, is that WE ARE NOW PRIVILEGED TO LIVE IN THE BLESSED PRESENCE OF GOD---Right NOW!!! In this view, Hell is the approach of death without having received that blessing.

Similarly, when Jesus offered that "there is no way to the Father, but through me," Elaine Pagels and others of the Historical Jesus Project, who have assiduously studied ALL the gospels, not just those centered around the works of the "Committee-That-Was-John", contend that the best interpretation of his meaning is that he intended his followers to embrace this seize-the-day and live in the heavenly bliss of the gift of life NOW approach that "the kingdom of God is at hand" might also elicit.

All are entitled to their own views. I like mine. Your only risk of hell, JillUser, is if you fail to live as if heaven awakes with you and beds you down each day.

Good decent people have a hard time conceiving of a system in which you are not judged solely by your behavior but by what you put your trust in. Jesus does forgive murderers, but if they live a long life afterwards, he expects that they clean up their act. Otherwise they have not really trusted in Jesus but have just tried to find an easy out. God's measuring stick is himself. Since none of us measure up to him, then we are condemned. Thus he gave us a way out. If you did put your trust in Jesus, probably not much would change. You would still be a good decent person. However, you would see the world and God differently.

As for Hell--it is separation from God. The eternal flames are just a metaphor. Heaven is being in God's presence.

Hello Miss Jill....and anyone else who is interested!

I could start off and quote alot of the Word and try to give you the correct scriptures to go with the plan of salvation, but, I really want to tell you that the only sin that will send anyone, anywhere to hell is rejecting Jesus. It's not about what religion you are, what church you attend, which denomination, etc......it's about coming to Jesus and asking Him into your heart and giving Him your cares, sins, weakness, hurts, pain.....and receiving from Him the free gift of His Blood that washes sins and all away. It's about having a living, breathing, intimate loving relationship with Jesus, and Father God. It's about knowing that no matter what happens, He will never leave you, nor forsake you....not for one second. He will be your best friend, your comforter, your helper, your wisdom, your protection, your lover, your keeper....whatever you need, He will be for you. You see, it's all about the precious blood He shed on the cross....I've got to say, that Mel Gibson got that part exceedingly right....the blood is what the enemy of God hates most of all....he can't stand against it....and it's the blood of Jesus that will clean a person....spirit, soul & body. Thank you Jesus for your awesome gift!

What I can tell you is that Jesus loves you.....He knows you....and He wants to have that loving relationship with you....Father God has an awesome plan for your life....plans He made before the foundation of the world.....plans to prosper you and not to harm you....plans to give you hope and a future.....and all anyone has to do is accept the free gift He has provided, by the blood of Jesus. The sin problem has been taken care of....all that is left is to receive Jesus into your heart.....amazing how so many people are afraid to receive a free gift from God....I mean, think about this......Jesus said "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father".....the Most High God of all creation, laid aside His throne and came to earth as a human to redeem His lost family....to shed His own blood for their redemption! To lay down His life for theirs. To become their sin, so they could receive His rightousness! To redeem His creation.

Every other religion (including many "Christian" denominations, unfortunately), says to be perfect, or get to heaven, you must do all the rules they have perfectly, and appease whatever diety is being worshiped, in order to reach whatever form of heaven they have. Follow all their rules like good little doobies and maybe, just maybe, it'll be enough to get you to heaven.....this is called religious works. This was the problem the Pharisees and Sadducees had....rules and works to be good enough......Jesus didn't care too much for them either...called them "white washed tombs full of dead mens bones" and "snakes & vipers"......! Religion stinks! I hate it!

Works versus Grace......hmmmm, I do believe that I will take grace! A relationship with Jesus is a much better way to live your life.....and it's free....to all who will come and receive. Now, if there is anyone who is interested in some good, plainspoken teaching on your destiny, please check out this page on the cfaith.com website that is open to anyone to read: Link

The articles there are by men and women of God, who love the Lord Jesus with all their hearts and only teach from the Word of God, plain un-religious truth. (meaning non-denominational) I would also like to recommend an internet church for you, if you would like to hear the church I "attend online live" on Sundays. Please go to Link and you will find a link to their broadcast page. Wonderful teaching that is ALIVE with the LOVE of God! Because God is LOVE....and His gift of Jesus is the proof of it!

Miss JillUser...I want to address one other thing before I sign off. You said you knew many Catholics that play by the rules of the church but aren't more loving or caring than you....well, that goes for any denomination of "Christianity". There are many, many folks who do lots of good things and faithfully attend church at least once a week, sit in a pew, then go home and live like the rest of the world the rest of the time. Good people, but not "born again".....meaning, they don't have a relationship with Jesus and Father God, and are only "churchy" Christians.....they attend a Christian denomination church, so that makes them a Christian, as opposed to the other religions in the world....whatever flavor. It doesn't make them a "real born again beliver" in Christ. As one of my favorite teachers of the Word said "I can go sit in my garage all day, and it doesn't make me a car!" Link God won't accept pew sitters, no matter how good or what denomination they call themselves, only a relationship with Jesus removes sin from someones life. And it's free! Come just as you are.....problems and all....you don't have to get all cleaned up, and do everything perfectly....just receive Jesus' love!

Jesus and Father God love you very much.....and their arms are wide open waiting for you.

Blessed Be,

lovesblessing

Sorry folks, my links didn't work right....that was the first time I posted on here with links.....let me see if these work right --http://www.cfaith.com/Cfaith/DESTINY/destiny_home/0,3786,,00.asp, http://www.emic.org/, http://www.joycemeyer.org/cgi-bin/jmm_cgi/temp/index.plx

I hope those work! I apologize for my error.....if you don't make mistakes, you don't learn what not to do! LOL! Thank God for Grace!

lovesblessing

So I go on living, learning and being thankful in the ways that fit me. I tend to think that God will judge me on those merits.

Jill~I really appreciated your quote above A LOT~so that's why I placed it here now. My philosophy is very much like your own. Are you gonna go to Hell? Ever? I don't think so. Because you strike me as a good and very honest person. And God will judge you on those merits. Isn't God an optimist? Why would God focus on ONLY our weaknesses, and overlook our strengths? I really enjoyed reading this blog. And it's good to know that other folks have a religious philosophy very much like my own. Thanks for writing this!

~MadPoet

"I am a good person. I treat others as I would have them treat me. My family means the world to me. I am respectful of my parents. I have never harmed another. I donate time and money to charity. I help friends and family whenever possible."

While those are all admirable qualities, it is my opinion that they alone will not get you into heaven. The BIble says that the only way to do that is to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, and to repent of all your sins. After that, we are expected to live our lives as much like His as we possibly can, which is where the traits you list above would serve you in good stead.

"How do you guys feel about the concept of original sin? I have known people who have had babies that were terribly ill and they were terrified because the infant hadn't been baptized yet. "

I beiieve that babies/children are considered pure and free from sin until they reach the "age of accountability", which is generally thought to be around the age of 12. I had my children "dedicated" as infants, which is more of a ceremony for the parents, to agree to raise the child in a Christian home and lead them to the truth of God.