Christianity is probably just based on a guy in a Jesus suit, then.

In a way, yes.

And Judaism is based on a guy in a Moses suit.

Ah, Christianity is probably just based on a guy in a Jesus suit, then. Ah, well. I guess I'll try Zorastrianism next...

Baker, I do know of people who claim to have seen Santa. There are 'eyewitness' accounts of ghosts, the loch ness, bigfoot, etc. We label those people as crazy these days but I would wager if some gal came to you and claimed she was a virgin and about to have God's baby, she would be labeled the same.

I am beginning to think by this discussion that I am the only one who has had any experience with trial law. Don't you people even watch law shows on TV?

agree with Doc about the evidence. What's the diff between evidence and proof by the way?

Evidence is something that might lead you to a conclusion about something.

Proof is when evidence is tested to determine it's validity to a point where there is no question about the conclusion.

Eyewitness accounts are thrown out as evidence all the time due to the character of the witness. Can anyone out there personally attest to personally knowing (i.e. being in the company of) any of the 'witnesses' at the resurrection? I'll answer that...no. Even then, eyewitness accounts are first hand. All we have are ancient stories of people claiming to have seen something. For all I know, they could have been drunk or ate some moldy corn (which will make you halucinate).

Evidence is pretty subjective though. Something seen or heard might lead different people to completely different conclusions. That is why if Dr. Guy and KFC feel that the bible is evidence, I can't prove them wrong and they can't prove me wrong because it isn't something that convinces me to come to the same conclusion. It certainly isn't proof because there are plenty of things to question about it.


God seems to have given people in a very specific region of the world, 2000 years ago, 'evidence'. If he wants us all to have proof, why doesn't he demonstrate his presence again in some undeniable way? Perhaps if God simply wants us to have faith, people should stop trying to claim there is 'proof'.

Well then I probably have my evidence and proof put together as one. I see the evidence and feel it "proves" that God is who he says he is. When we find or discover different things that seem to be in line with what scripture teaches I look at that also as proof. Things like science, archeology and historical discoveries that allow for biblical inerrancy.

Paul talked a bit about this in Romans 1:18-22 saying that the things that are made (creation) reveal to all men the eternal power and divinity of the true God so that the rejection of this truth makes a man without excuse before God. In other words, it doesn't matter if you know what the book says, God gave us creation as evidence to make a decision.

So maybe for some they may call it evidence that doesn't lead anywhere and others like me evidence that leads to proof.

I think of the OT when God provided water from a rock to the disbelieving Hebrews. He later said thru the Psalmist that he "proved" to them who he was but they still would not listen. He said:

"You called in trouble and I delivered you. I answered you in the secret place of thunder. I proved you at the waters of Meribah. Hear O my people and I will testify to you O Israel if you will listen to me." Ps 81:7-8

So while maybe while I can see and feel there is "proof" I cannot "prove" to another. It has to come from inside their own heart as God reveals to them. That's where faith matters. There are some that may say...."it's just a coincidence that the rock gave us water at the right time." Where others would say...."it's an act and provision of God."

Well KFC, if God ever makes water come from a rock for me, I would believe it. People throw the term 'miracle' around pretty lightly though. There really are coincidences that have plenty of rational explainations that people label as a miracle. A rock providing water couldn't be coincidence because it isn't something that can logically happen without some sort of trick.

You have to be inspired some way to have faith. I don't doubt that everyone who is religious has plenty of their own reasons for their faith. I simply have not been inspired in heart or mind or given any "proof" as far as I'm concerned. Just as love can't be forced, faith can't be forced or brought about by any outside source like you said, it is in your heart...or it isn't.

JillUser:

There are people who have claimed to have seen or even claim to be Santa too. Stories of eyewitnesses still fall under the "myth" category Dr. Guy. Are you really saying there is 'proof' of the resurrection? I don't even know where to start with that one.

The irony here is, more people have claimed to see Santa, UFOs or Bigfoot than have seen Ununtrium, but if we question the existance of that element, we would be called crazy! ;~D

The irony here is, more people have claimed to see Santa, UFOs or Bigfoot than have seen Ununtrium, but if we question the existance of that element, we would be called crazy! ;~D

The thing is ParaTed, ununtrium can be produced and reproduced, measured, etc. You can't see it with the naked eye but it can be seen with proper instruments. Produce a UFO for me and I just might believe in them.

Hey, maybe Jesus wasn't actually dead when they put him in the tomb. Before embalming, people were known to bury people alive because they were mistaken for dead. I wasn't there. I don't know anyone who was. I have never had an encounter with Jesus so, as far as I'm concerned there is no proof of the resurrection.

This is coming from my perspective, and so it may or may not carry weight with anyone else. I suppose it could be considered coincidence, but I don't believe it is, and neither does the non-Christian surgeon who treated my daughter.

When she was four, a candle caught the hem of her dress on fire and J suffered 3rd degree burns over 90% of her body. The only places not burned were her buttocks and her scalp. Everthing else was burned and exposed... everything.

I consider it a miracle that she lived through the first night (they told us that in all probability, she wouldn't). That's not the focus of my miracle though. Here's where it gets specific. The surgeon told us that it wouldn't be a question of IF she would get skin infections, it would be a matter of when and how many. He said that with all of her body exposed like that (skin burned off), there was no way she would go through the healing process without suffering setbacks due to infection of the wounds... setbacks at the very least. They also told me that any one of those infections could take her life. Each threat was very real and serious.

The surgeon says he has never seen anything like it. We prayed (along with millions around the world) and J never developed skin infection of any kind, ever, through the entire recovery process. Even though 90% of her body was exposed with no skin covering it... even though she had eons of skin graftings (both grafted from her scalp and butt and also some artificial skin that they grew in a lab from her own skin cells)... even though they have never seen a patient with such extensive burns not suffer skin infections. The surgeon (not a praying man) told me to keep having people pray, because she was a living miracle. They also told me she'd remain in the hospital as an inpatient for at least 9 months, and she came home in three... but that's another story. *s*

While I give God credit for healing her, I acknowledge that He used modern medicine and ordinary men to accomplish this. I know that there was a highly skilled team of professionals seeking to ensure that she received the best care known to man. I also believe that God orchestrated putting that team in place, and that even with their expertise... the fact that she not only lived, but is active and leads a normal life is a miracle. Explain it away if you wish, but I know that God's hand was on my little girl. I've often wondered if the doctors had to push past angels to get to her bed. *s*

I had a deep faith before this accident that changed my family forever. The things we went through have served to grow that faith even more. But I know that there are others that witnessed this... some who had no faith at all... who walked away believing that God had healed this child. I know we each have to decide for ourselves. I know that belief is a personal choice and that we all view life and the things that happen to us through very specific filters, depending on where we're coming from. For me... I believe in miracles. I've lived one up close and personal. I wish that everyone could get to experience the hand of God in such a powerful and dramatic way as I have... because I'll never be the same for it. I never would have guessed that we would go through what we did... and it was HARD. I don't regret it though, not for a second -- because it made me stronger and it made me really inspect my faith and see if it was real. It was put to the test in a way it never had before (or has been since), and I found it to be pure as gold when put through the fire.

Maybe God will bring water out of a rock for you yet, Jill. I think it takes something different for all of us to believe... but I think that if you're seeking to see if He exists, in some way, He'll show Himself to you. If you're looking, I pray you'll find what it is you seek.

Forgive me for coming in on the tail end of this. But this 'you're either with me or against me' stuff is in the Bible. As human beings, we have the gift to choose. God will not force us to serve him. Jesus Christ, in Matthew 12:30 and Luke 11:23 of the New Testament of Christianity, said, "He who is not with me is against me..." So that's what Jesus has said on the matter. I'm hard pressed to find quote from a favorite pastor at the moment; However the part that he added went something like this - "You can't not choose because by not choosing you end up not choosing Jesus " (meaning if your "undecided" on the matter you didn't choose to follow Jesus). The pastor is Adrian Rogers from Love Worth Finding. Website is lwf.org

Alright so a person either follows Jesus or he/she doesn't. My take on 'so and so' being anti-Christian is that people shouldn't be labelling people as anti-Christian, it's counter-productive to the Great Commission given by Jesus. Christians should be living an example for others and trying to spread Christianity.

JillUser:

The thing is ParaTed, ununtrium can be produced and reproduced, measured, etc. You can't see it with the naked eye but it can be seen with proper instruments. Produce a UFO for me and I just might believe in them.

First of all Jill, IT WAS A JOKE!! ;~D

Second of all, it may be reproducable in the lab, but only a few dozen people have ever bothered to do it, no one has actually seen it, and the effects haven't even been ratified (but it is on the Periodic Table because the published results from 3 independent labs have been generally accepted). Hence my joke about more people seeing good ol' Element #116 than have claimed to have seen UFOs, Bigfoot... etc.

Thirdly... It was a joke! Laugh and live a little ;~D

HC, I believe it was a miracle that your daughter survived too. I don’t believe in accidents. I think that everything that happens is God’s will, including things that seem a bit grim. It is true that other Christians might have testimonies like yours, but in which their child died. How would your faith have been if your daughter hadn’t survived?

I read the following story, which holds great meaning to me:

There was a Christian woman who, having lost her young child to lukaemia, almost lost her faith in God. In the midst of her torment, she went to her local Church to find time alone to pray for strength and an answer. Overwhelmed by grief, she started shouting at God, “How can you let such an awful thing happen to me? What are you doing? You don’t know what it feels like to lose a child!”

Looking up, the woman saw a statue of Jesus, nailed to a cross, looking down upon her. Realising what she’d just said, she went to the front of the Church and knelt, sobbing. Through her tears she saw at the back of the Church a mosaic, exquisite and beautiful in detail. It was a depiction of Jesus, full of light and glory in the presence of angels. Embellished within the mosaic were written the words, “He is Risen.”

This story holds great meaning to me. Not only does it reveal that the woman’s pain is entwined with Christ’s suffering on the cross, it also discloses that her child is risen with Christ, sharing His glory in Heaven. This realisation, though bringing her no closer to understanding why her child died, enabled the woman to retain her faith and find a sense of peace, knowing that her child was safe in Heaven, and that everything was in God’s hands.

I think that every moment of our existence – on 'this side' of the veil, and on the other side – is a “miracle”.

You have to take the word of people who make that element. I can't do it, you can't do it. Not unlike taking the word of a guy that gets to go up on the mountain and talk to God...

I think that everything that happens is God’s will

"Everything happens for a reason" is how I meant to word that. Although I suppose it's the same thing. ("God's will" just sounds like we're victims, which we're not.)

Guy..

There's actually no proof or evidence saying it's a *virgin* birth. Yes, there were three guys who wittnessed the birth, but no one can provide proof or even evidence that it was virgin. It's something that has to be taken 100% on faith.

Baker..

While so few can reproduce the element... if someone gave you a lab, and detailed instructions on how it was done and how to measure it, you'd be able to reproduce it yourself.

To the argument of internal proof...
Where one feels that it has been "proven" to them but they themselves can not produce any proof or evidence for others, it hasn't been proven at all. You have been convinced and have faith in God. In order for something to be proven, there has to be proof... If it's all in your head and your heart, then you've been convinced through whatever argument was necessary. You believe you saw or experienced a miracle. It is not proof however. Proof is pretty much in direct opposition to the concept of faith. If something is proven, it requires know faith because it crosses the line from belief to knowledge.

Now, you may be so convinced and have such strong faith that to you something appears factual, proven and absolute, but if you can not provide that proof or evidence for someone else, if that proof can not withstand basic scrutiny, then it's nothing of the sort. It remains faith and belief.

I believe in God and in Christ... but I do not for a second try and pass it off as provable fact. I do not think it's possible to prove God. I do not think it's possible to present the existence of God as tangible and real. It's also why I don't try and sell others on the whole thing. People either want to believe or they don't. Facts and proof and evidence don't exist in this argument... and you can't equate religious "proof" with scientific proof... because even with a group of believers, you can not document and consistently reproduce any "evidence" of God or whatever. All you have are similar shared experiences. With science, if it can be reproduced, it can be documented to the point where even someone not familiar with the science can reproduce the experiment if given the docs and access to the equipment.

Faith is personal and has no need for external validation. People however need to feel like they're "right" where others are "wrong" and religion is a great arena for that to happen, because no one can be proven wrong. Some can just argue better than others... and if someone refuses to come around to your way of thinking you can either just dismiss them as hell-bound or a deluded religious zealot. And everyone is super-sensitive to the subject. To most who believe strongly in either direction, they view disagreement with their faith as disagreement with them as people.

Athiests are just as evangelical as many Christians. I've been labeled as anti-christian and as a religious nut job just because I didn't immediately bow to one persons individual view of the universe.

My take on 'so and so' being anti-Christian is that people shouldn't be labelling people as anti-Christian, it's counter-productive to the Great Commission given by Jesus. Christians should be living an example for others and trying to spread Christianity.

I appreciate that and I agree.

ParaTed:

Thirdly... It was a joke! Laugh and live a little ;~D

I did get that and I did laugh but I thought I would be preemptive about people who wouldn't because I figured me response would be more pithy than others might be. I didn't mean to offend. I do get it.


HC:

Maybe God will bring water out of a rock for you yet, Jill. I think it takes something different for all of us to believe... but I think that if you're seeking to see if He exists, in some way, He'll show Himself to you. If you're looking, I pray you'll find what it is you seek.

Thanks for sharing your story. I only hope that God doesn't show himself to me by having to harm and then save someone I love. I would feel more blessed if they didn't get harmed in the first place.

I appreciate your prayers and am so glad your daughter came out of such a horrible experience.

AndyBaker, I wish I could believe everything happens for a reason. Unfortunately I think organized religion was created to comfort people when senseless, horrible things happen. How else do you deal with having your 2yr old get hit and killed by a car? What reason would there be for such a thing? Did any good come from it? There are no good answers to those questions so you fill it in with "God has a purpose for everyone and everything that happens." That just doesn't satisfy me. I'm glad it works for others though.

Wow.  Some innocent child is horribly burned but doesn't die and this is considered as proof of God?

No thanks.  If that's the kind of thing "God" is likely to do I would prefer he stay the hell away from me and my family thank you.

I much prefer the "No bad things happen to my children" route to the "miracle" of having a loved one suffer horribly.