I much prefer the "No bad things happen to my children" route to the "miracle" of having a loved one suffer horribly.

You have a point, of course.

But perhaps the role of faith in such a case is not to provide a reason for why it happened, but something to do while things (might) work out again.

Clearly the parents want to do something to help the child in such a case. Only they can't. The doctors can and they do. Religion and faith in G-d give the parents the opportunity to pray for the child and thus do *something*, even if it cannot physically help the child.

I am sure that any doctor involved would rather work with parents who have faith and pray for their child than with parents who cannot do anything to make them feel like they are doing their bit. And that is perhaps worth a lot. And it can certainly help the child, in a very indirect way.

How else do you deal with having your 2yr old get hit and killed by a car? What reason would there be for such a thing? Did any good come from it?

Yes, I’m convinced that a higher good will come from it, (possibly even in this life). But due to our tiny, finite scope, our human minds cannot (yet) expand into a frame of reference which enables this higher good to be to fully appreciated, or realised.

I believe that our souls are eternal, and that everything that we experience serves the learning and development of our soul – especially so called negative experiences. All of our religions claim that this earthly life isn’t the be all and end all. There is a higher, divine purpose to life that transcends our earthly existence, and death is not the end. We will experience the benefits of persevering hardship sooner or later, even if it's not in this life.

But from the point of view of the intellect alone, which is bound to the five senses, there is no sign of such goings on, so the intellect will either consider such teachings “false”, (or at least “misguided”), or it might begin to believe them based purely upon “faith”, which alone doesn't hold much weight. However, there is a deeper level to human consciousness than the intellect alone – and this is called “intuition”. A person that is attuned with their intuition - or the ‘wisdom of the heart’, as I call it – will know, perhaps only vaguely, that these basic religious revelations are actually “true”. (We’re all attuned to our inner-wisdom to varying degrees, so not everyone will sing off the same hymn-sheet. Some people might not be aware of a hymn-sheet at all so to speak.)

Regarding negative experiences on earth, what might seem grim from a personality’s point of view, might actually be a treasure for the soul. Whilst the personality understandably sets its sights on worldly riches and hopes, the soul has a different agenda in mind – primarily the attainment spiritual wealth, wisdom and the building of inner-muscle.

A difficult lifetime as a starving person in Africa, for example, could potentially boost the soul’s level of spiritual advancement far more than if it had experienced a comfortable life of worldly wealth, luxury and pampering. If the African person had correctly perceived God as its ‘rock’ and foundation, as opposed to seeking security and a sense of self-worth in anything of the world – then he or she could experience a relatively comfortable ‘inner-experience’ whilst on earth, regardless of its harsh external conditions. (Humility and a humble sense of inner peace are fruits of the Spirit.) Moreover, if he or she had exercised things like patience, goodwill, forgiveness, compassion, perseverance, etc., and had integrity and a reverence for life, then the benefits of those so called negative earthly experiences would be priceless. That soul’s inner-experience would be Heavenly to an extreme when it passed over to the other side.

Compared with a personality who had lived a life of wealth, luxury and pampering, yet who had adhered to worldly principles of greed, selfishness, deceit and ego-power - the African peasant would literally be a millionaire. In Heaven she will fully appreciate and experience the fruits of such wealth. “Those who are now last will be first, and those who are now first will be last”, said Jesus.

From the soul's point of view, it is the next life which is our true reality and home, and is where real life begins. If HC and her daughter can retain a positive attitude, and have a sense of trust and faith in God, (God will indeed supply all the resources needed to persevere), then I’m convinced that a greater good will eventually arise because of that accident, rather than in spite of it. The fruits will probably be experienced even in this lifetime.

Everything happens for a reason. I am convinced. In the meantime, God intimately feels our pains and understands our human frailties, as that story about the Christian woman disclosed.

You were just as intolerant (in my opinion) of BenUser's views as you think he was of yours.

Yes, I was. The key difference is that I wasn't claiming tolerance while being so blatantly intolerant.

As for Ben, let's just say, that's between me and Ben. He has MORE than earned my contempt.

As for Ben, let's just say, that's between me and Ben. He has MORE than earned my contempt.

I don't doubt that Gid. I'm no BenUser fan myself. Tolerance or intolerance can be argued but sometimes intent is clear and you can tell if a person is trying to condescend or demean.

Everything happens for a reason. I am convinced. In the meantime, God intimately feels our pains and understands our human frailties, as that story about the Christian woman disclosed.

Andy, again, I am happy for you for your belief. I am hoping though that you aren't saying that I am merely less intuitive than you are. The story you gave of the Christian woman made perfect sense to you. It made no sense to me. Going by the story of Jesus, God still has no idea what it is like to lose a child. He placed him on Earth and could oversee everything. Jesus then was reunited with him. So no, God does not know what it is like to lose a child and not know why or if you would ever see your child again.

Why chose one family to suffer and another to be saved? That is rhetorical btw. I really don't have any use for the "God has a reason" explaination. As I said, that doesn't satisfy me. Just because you are born in Ethiopia you get to suffer horrible hunger, disease and loss and because you are born in modern America you get to live in luxury. Makes no sense. No, I believe there are plenty of random things that happen in life. I don't believe everything is some part of a master plan. "Shit happens" in my opinion.

I do believe that perhaps we will ascend to a higher level of consciousness after we die. None of us knows what will happen. I hope that God will give us all the answers but I personally don't believe that anything that happens to us in this life is going to matter beyond good and evil. Perhaps if you are evil you just blink out of existance and if you are good you get the answers. But what about the child who got wiped out at 2yrs old? They didn't live long enough to experience anything or long enough to form any questions.

If God reveals any of this stuff to me I'll be sure to let you all know

If God reveals any of this stuff to me I'll be sure to let you all know

Oh, if God reveals any of this stuff to me, I'll be sure to let you know as well...but durned if I'm gonna let you get the details without PAYING for them!

So no, God does not know what it is like to lose a child and not know why or if you would ever see your child again.

I think the main point of the story was to illustrate that God shares our pain and suffering. Jesus’ words on the cross, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” illustrate that God felt the depths of human abandonment and suffering, not unlike a mother would feel if she lost her child. God understands our human pains and feelings of abandonment, at least according to Christian revelation. That story about the mother only gives a rough illustration, and I think analogies are rarely perfect.

But what about the child who got wiped out at 2yrs old? They didn't live long enough to experience anything or long enough to form any questions.

I believe that in cases of young deaths like that, the ‘benefits’ - or learning experiences – to be reaped are more for the souls involved in the child’s life, rather than the child itself. (Although deep down, at a soul-level, the child itself might be able to garner some wisdom from that short time on earth.) Even though it may seem absurd to say that such negative experiences can be described as “benefits”, I personally believe that all experiences are digested, assimilated and ultimately transformed into positive learning and spiritual muscle, for the soul. It may not seem very “positive” in the midst of it from our personality’s point of view, but I think that it’s a whole different ball game from Heaven’s point of view, where our souls exist for all eternity, and are infinitely secure. These little lifetimes on earth are like mere blinks of an eye, and I’m sure a lifetime is no different to a quick trip to the gym.

Just because you are born in Ethiopia you get to suffer horrible hunger, disease and loss and because you are born in modern America you get to live in luxury. Makes no sense

Those two examples were two extremes, to illustrate the difference between spiritual wealth and material wealth. I’m sure God doesn’t expect us to be ‘super-spirits’, like that African person. Even if we react to worldly negativities with anger, frustration and fear - like an average personality would – I believe that the soul would still be better off in Heaven, at the end of the day, than if it hadn’t experienced the ‘bad’ lifetime at all. It would possess a lot more wisdom and strength after all.

I am hoping though that you aren't saying that I am merely less intuitive than you are.

No, I’m not saying that at all. I’m sure you are more intuitive than me in many areas, in ways that are more beneficial and practical than my philosophical rants. The language of ‘lesser’ or ‘better’ is meaningless, in my view. As I'm sure you'll agree, I think that most people see my views as nonsense anyway, so no harm done at all. I just enjoy pondering and expressing this stuff.

I do believe that perhaps we will ascend to a higher level of consciousness after we die

I believe that we can do this while we’re still here on earth.

If God reveals any of this stuff to me I'll be sure to let you all know

In my opinion, He’s revealed some stuff to me. But I don’t expect that to cut any mustard, and I honestly don’t expect other people to believe it. I’m just telling my own truths from my own point of view, just as everyone is.

I believe that Heaven is our eternal abode - Home, so to speak - and that we freely choose to incarnate on earth as many times as we like, for the purpose of spiritual advancement and learning. The hardships and tribulations that we face on earth are of our own choosing, (or at least our soul's), not God's. But I’ve described all this in detail on another thread, so I won’t labour it again. I'm not alone in this view, incidentally, as there are loads of author's out there, who have written books based on information gained by their 'sixth sense'. They're all singing off the same hymn sheet, and I personally believe that it's huamnity's destiny to awaken to these truths.

Depending on our own degree of spiritual awareness, and depending on whether we’ve been in touch with certain circles of contemporary wisdom literature – i.e. books and articles written by authors who are on a certain ‘wavelength’ of spiritual awareness, (Marianne Williamson, whom I quoted earlier, is one such author) – we may not yet be aware that humanity is actually on the threshold of a new spiritual awakening. I’m sure it won’t be long before this awakening rises up and spills over into the popular mind. (The Truth has a habit of rising to the top, after all.)

But all of this is just my point of view, and I'm expressing it because I have such a passion for it, and I get excited about it too. I feel like a big kid who knows a secret, to be honest. But I trust it's all harmless stuff anyway, at the end of the day - whether we believe it or not. So I may as well just express it.

There's actually no proof or evidence saying it's a *virgin* birth. Yes, there were three guys who wittnessed the birth,

Where did three come from?

You can't not choose because by not choosing you end up not choosing Jesus " (meaning if your "undecided" on the matter you didn't choose to follow Jesus). The pastor is Adrian Rogers from Love Worth Finding. Website is lwf.org

This is absolutely my favorite guy. Too bad he just died recently. He had so much wisdom and knowledge. I was hoping to see him in person again (did once) by going to one of his conferences. But in the meantime I still catch him on radio now and again.

I remember the first time I heard him he said...."Faith like film is best developed in the dark."

He also said about divorce....."First they look for the ideal....then go thru an ordeal......then look for a new deal."

But what about the child who got wiped out at 2yrs old?

I knew a family whose 1 year old was killed by a dog. It was awful. They were not Christians but then became Christian thru this tragedy. Basically they say now that this baby was the instrument that brought them to God. It was tough but they look at it differently now. God has since blessed them with another beautiful baby. They believe they will be reunited with their first son someday.

I was just reading about how some will die by the sword for God and some will live to old age for God. One is not better than another. God uses both for his glory.

(Regarding organised religion, I personally agree with Indian spiritual leader Sri Chinmoy, by the way: “Each religion is right, absolutely right, in its own way, but when we cry for the highest truth, the love of God becomes the only religion.”)

Basically they say now that this baby was the instrument that brought them to God

KFC, I've just seen your reply. Yes - I couldn't have worded that any better!

"While so few can reproduce the element... if someone gave you a lab, and detailed instructions on how it was done and how to measure it, you'd be able to reproduce it yourself. "

But you'd still be relying on their assertion that what you ended up with is what they claim it to be. If I went back in time and gave a caveman the instructions on how to make peanut butter, gave him the lab, and told him that what he was making was ununtrium, he'd just accept it and make ununtrium and jelly sandwiches.

Science is about creating definitions and mapping out physical reality, but in the end those definitions and the legends to those maps are of our making, and are DEFINED by the limitation of our senses. What was water, earth, fire and air becomes basic elements, which becomes subatomic particles, and on, and on...

Our definitions change based upon what we can observe and understand. You believe in ununtrium because you believe people who tell you that if you had a lab you could make it yourself. Until you do, you still just believe. Once you do, you believe what you made IS ununtrium, and later when you learn more you might find you just invented the peanut butter sandwich to someone, somewhere with different senses and understanding.

JillUser:

Thirdly... It was a joke! Laugh and live a little ;~D I did get that and I did laugh but I thought I would be preemptive about people who wouldn't because I figured me response would be more pithy than others might be. I didn't mean to offend. I do get it.

Fair enough, no offense taken.

So no, God does not know what it is like to lose a child and not know why or if you would ever see your child again.

God has lost (and will continue to lose) all of His children that end up not returning to heaven. Lucifer would be a big example of one of His children he not only lost, but became an enemy to Him.

I can't say for sure, but I doubt losing a child to a painful death would be anywhere near as bad as seeing even one become a blood thirsty enemy, bent on the distruction of the rest.

knew a family whose 1 year old was killed by a dog. It was awful. They were not Christians but then became Christian thru this tragedy. Basically they say now that this baby was the instrument that brought them to God. It was tough but they look at it differently now. God has since blessed them with another beautiful baby. They believe they will be reunited with their first son someday.

To me that just falls under the "needing religion to make sense of tragedy" category. So, will this 1yr old be a 1yr old for all eternity? Perhaps the parents will live and experience life for decades upon decades while the 1yr old never even got a chance to begin life. Still makes no sense to me.

God has lost (and will continue to lose) all of His children that end up not returning to heaven. Lucifer would be a big example of one of His children he not only lost, but became an enemy to Him.

I don't believe in Lucifer or hell so that doesn't equate with me either. It is all just a bunch of stories attempting to give reason to what we don't understand as far as I'm concerned. It is far scarier to accept the thought that random things can happen at any time and result in everything just simply coming to an end. Who wants to believe that there isn't anything after this life? Who wants to believe that God isn't watching out for us? That is why I find it funny when people claim that atheists take any satisfaction in refusing God's existance. Does anyone really think that atheism is more comforting?

To me that just falls under the "needing religion to make sense of tragedy" category. So, will this 1yr old be a 1yr old for all eternity? Perhaps the parents will live and experience life for decades upon decades while the 1yr old never even got a chance to begin life. Still makes no sense to me.

I agree with you.  I have seen too many people "turn" Christian after a tragedy.  I see it only as a way of coping.  I would *love* to believe that I will see my loved ones again after death, it would be comforting, but I just can't believe it. 

 

Thanks for sharing your story. I only hope that God doesn't show himself to me by having to harm and then save someone I love. I would feel more blessed if they didn't get harmed in the first place.

Jill, I didn't mean to imply that I hoped you would have to face something horrible in order to come face to face with God. Please forgive me if it came across that way. In relating my story, I didn't mean to make it sound like it took that for me to believe. It didn't. I had faith before the accident, but seeing God carry us through it strengthened my faith. I don't believe God orchestrated that fire to prove Himself to me. Some things just happen. I don't blame the devil for everything bad that happens, and I don't blame God either. Some things just are. It's in the aftermath of the fire that I see God's hand.

What I meant is that God can reveal Himself to us in powerful ways. He may choose to do that with you yet. Some of us find Him in the valley, others through mountaintop experiences... and then there are times when He comes to us suddenly in the midst of everyday routine things. I'm sorry if it came across as anything other than that.

No worries HC. You didn't come across as anything but caring and sincere and I truly appreciated you sharing your story. You were clear that you had faith before. I was just expressing my hope that it doesn't take a tragedy for God to reveal anything to me.

Thanks!