Would Teachers Agree with Zero Tolerance if Applied to Them?

Published on December 5, 2005 By JillUser In Current Events

I have been enjoying the discussions on JU regarding Zero Tolerance. It seems there is some debate about what the term means even though I have read the policy and seen it in action. In a nutshell, here are the rules, here are the punishments. Break rule A even if it is a technicality and you get punishment B.

What if that applied to teachers? I see them breaking rules all the time. Sometimes it is even to the extent of endangering their students. For example, my son's 2nd grade teacher asked me to help out in class last year so I happily obliged. I showed up a little early just so I could see what the teacher wanted me to do before jumping in. I got to the classroom and the kids were unsupervised. I instantly thought the teacher had stepped out for a second (see I made an assumption of positive not negative).

I sat there for a few minutes watching the kids throw stuff around and be pretty crazy (except for my son of course <g>). I didn't discipline anyone because A) Why would they listen to me? and That isn't my responsibility. After about 5 minutes I asked my son where the teacher was. He said that she was at lunch. So I asked if this was a usually thing. He said "Yep!"

I realize I could have gone to find an administrator but wanted to see just how long these kids would be left unattended and see what the teacher had to say when she got back. I sat there for 20 minutes with not a single adult checking on those 2nd graders! When the teacher got back she said that a hall monitor was supposed to check in and maybe she didn't because she probably assumed I was her. What?! There is so much wrong with that!

That is when I had a talk with the principal and she said she was unaware of the situation and assured me they would change the schedule so the kids would be attended at all times. Do you know how many ways those kids could have caused problems or bodily harm in 20 minutes?! I don't trust my kids with the school staff thinking they aren't even there with them for any amount of time.

So should that teacher have been canned? She knew those kids were unattended but didn't try to rectify it. Zero tolerance! She left the kids alone for 20 minutes a day! 7yr old kids! No questions, just start firing! Don't try to solve a problem, just dole out punishment!

Somehow I think teachers would see zero tolerance differently if it was applied to them.

Comments (Page 2)

JillUser

on Dec 05, 2005

Why does this become a "teacher" thing, and not a school district administration thing, for they are the ones who create the zero tolerance policies????????

It became a "teacher thing" when a teacher wrote that ZT was a necessity. If you believe in treating things on a case by case basis, you don't believe in ZT and therefore are not a target of this discussion. If you are teaching in a school that has a zero tolerance policy and you aren't reporting every little thing, you might be putting your career at risk.

I had a child saying he wanted to shower and kiss a female classmate all over

Do you agree that this is a far different situation in kindergarten vs high school? ZT would make no distinction between the two.

InBloom

on Dec 05, 2005

~~It became a "teacher thing" when a teacher wrote that ZT was a necessity.~~

And that is One teacher's opinion...And the scenario you wrote about dealt with One specific teacher...yet, the title seems to generalize, and several comments made on here seem to lump teachers into one general "Zero Tolerance Happy" group as well.

~~Do you agree that this is a far different situation in kindergarten vs high school? ZT would make no distinction between the two.~~

And THIS is where ZT restructuring needs to take place...I do see your point.

MarcieMoo

on Dec 05, 2005

And that is One teacher's opinion...And the scenario you wrote about dealt with One specific teacher...yet, the title seems to generalize, and several comments made on here seem to lump teachers into one general "Zero Tolerance Happy" group as well.

Exactly. I am one of millions. On this topic you're going to find MILLIONS of differing opinions. It's life. Deal. I don't give a rat's tail if you don't like me or whatever, but the least you can do is put the "blame" where the "blame" is due. Rose has absolutely nothing to do with *MY* opinion.

Rose has a lot more experience than I do, too. Give her a break, for the love.

bakerstreet

on Dec 05, 2005

kids are not legally liable for their actions. They can't consent to sex, they can't enter into contracts. Evidently now, though, even when they make offhand remarks, write stupid stuff in diaries, make irresponsible choices as to what cultery to include with their lunches, etc., they are condemned by punishments that can follow them the rest of their lives.

We don't even hold ADULTS to those kind of standards. If I write a diary full of horrible descriptions of what I would do to the neighbors, the state can't "deal with me" because I am a threat. Writing in a diary isn't a crime, no matter what you write.

These aren't kids who harm other kids for the most part. These are kids who make mistakes, a reality we had accepted before safety-insane, socialist parent-overseers took charge of the education system. What was once education is now social child rearing.

InBloom

on Dec 05, 2005

~~Rose has a lot more experience than I do, too. Give her a break, for the love.~~

Experience I do have, but that shouldn't discount your opinion.
You have a right to defend your stance on this just as much as anyone else does.

JillUser

on Dec 06, 2005

And that is One teacher's opinion...And the scenario you wrote about dealt with One specific teacher...yet, the title seems to generalize,

My title poses a question does it not? Perhaps other people have had experiences that lead them to the same thoughts as I have. Perhaps not. That is the fun of blogging and allowing people to leave comments. I made no personal attacks. This was directed at teachers who speak out in favor of Zero Tolerance.

JillUser

on Dec 06, 2005

double submission...doh!

stevendedalus

on Dec 06, 2005

Somehow I think teachers would see zero tolerance differently if it was applied to them. This is a rash statement based on a horrific, isolated case.

stevendedalus

on Dec 06, 2005

the last things most of them are comfortable with is accountability.

Only when the community, state and federal governments lack accountability in providing the essentials for effective public education. Unless you just despise teacher unions, you should avoid the broad brushstroke. It has been almost everyone's experience that teachers lean backwards to be tolerant toward their pupils but in rare occasions when a pupil is incorrigible, they expect that special avenues be available to him/her where he/she is given special help.

stevendedalus

on Dec 06, 2005

THe anecdote obviously puts the teacher in a bad light, not necessarily incompetent, but worse, uncaring, which for a teacher is unforgivable.

stevendedalus

on Dec 06, 2005

Perhaps we should spew the same venom toward the Bush administration as shown here concerning ZT toward students. Zero tolerance is but a last resort after considerable tolerance and does not mean zero compassion.

bakerstreet

on Dec 06, 2005

"Unless you just despise teacher unions, you should avoid the broad brushstroke."

After knowing me for years, steve, is that something you really have to suppose? As was pointed out on another blog, this isn't isolated, this is happening a lot at different levels of heinousness. Out of sheer fear we are allowing our kids to be treated in ways that we would NEVER tolerate being treated ourselves, and oddly enought those least apt to tolerate it seem to be the ones most apt to champion it.

KarmaGirl

on Dec 06, 2005

Somehow I think teachers would see zero tolerance differently if it was applied to them. This is a rash statement based on a horrific, isolated case.

I don't think it is rash at all. I think that you could replace "worker" for "teacher" and make it more applicable in general.

Boss: "Well, John, right here in the policy guide it says that anyone who fails to start on time without prior approval 3 times within one month will be terminated. Sorry, you're fired"

John:"But, the first time was due to my car breaking down. The second was because my baby was sick and I had to wait for her Mom to get home because I couldn't take her to daycare. And, today was because I stopped to help an old lady out of a car fire!"

Boss:"Doesn't matter. Here's the door".

See, that is what is wrong with "Zero Tolerance". There is no judgment call. It doesn't matter why the offense happened or the severity or intent. Action "A" gets punishment "B". No questions, no judgment call. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work in the workforce, so why should it be applied to our children? And, we're talking *public* schools.

Ziggystyles

on Dec 07, 2005

First off...when zero tolerance is applied to students...it results usually in a suspension...not expulsion. They would have to do something incredibly stupid / very illegal or whatever to be expelled.

Also...teachers dont come up with the ZT policy...the administration does. Also..many times...its a legal issue. If a student has a drug piece in school and gives it to someone else who in turn hands it in to authorities...its still possesion of drug paraphernalia for Both students...because thats what the law says.

As far as the situation you mentioned...yes..that was a very incredibly illegal situation. I dont know the teachers side because I wasnt there. The students are supposed to be monitored at all times, by law. When I was teaching K...Id zip out of the room into the storage room for a few seconds to get something...even that was a no-no...but sometimes I had to get stuff out of there. I have no problem with a teacher leaving a room for a few seconds or going into the hallway (if there is a window in/by the door for monitoring) if they need to have a quick, private conversation. It sounds like the monitors didnt really know what they were doing. The teacher should stay in the room until a person allowed to watch the kiddos comes in.

Oh yeah, they have a union to protect them (in most cases).

And your point is what? Yeah...teachers have unions, that doesnt keep them from getting fired or penalized if they do something against the law.

What Marcie? Teachers don't get to set their own schedules? How awful!! That would make them like, well... almost every other employee in the country.

Most elementary teachers are told when their specials are..and thats it. As an elementary teacher...its best to teach some subjects at various times during the day. For example...math. Math is best taught right away in the morning because the students are more attentive than at later times and according to research, have performed better when math is taught in the morning. When I taught K...I sat down with them right away as they were eager to hear what I had to say, instead of the last five minutes when they were ready and raring to go. Now...as a teacher...Id rather not have my administration telling me when to teach what and for how long. I should be given the time requirements for each subject and the flexibility to teach the subjects when I want during the day. Also...each class performs differently....its good to have flexibility when teaching so that if something doenst work at one point during the day...one could shuffle stuff around.

Im trying to write a thread on something like this...Ive been trying for a week or so...not sure exactly how to write it. My thing is that...not talking about ZT here.... When students do something in school, swearing at the teacher, being totally disrespectful and disruptive, minors using tobacco, leaving campus during school...skipping classes...what should happen? Granted, its a case by case thing...but its like students seem to have little respect for adults; not just teachers, but adults in general. Kids go to ISS all the time for all sorts of reasons and they go home and beat the mail so the parents never know. What should be done so that the students learn from the choices they make?

Texas Wahine

on Dec 07, 2005

I'd be pretty upset about that.

The teacher should have either a) brought a lunch from home and eaten in the classroom or

waited to eat until her conference period or immediately after school.

I've worked in a place where I often found myself having to miss lunch in order to take care of customers. She wouldn't die from changing her eating schedule.

Ugh.

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