So, I'm Going to Hell

on Apr 20, 2004

I asked another Jewish friend about Satan and Judaism. No Satan in Judaism. Perhaps SgtSmitty wishes to retract his comments.

No, Of course not. Maybe your Jewish friend needs to read his book a little more. Ask him about Job, the serpent in genesis, stories in ezekiel, etc. Now, to further explain why your Jewish friends say that there is no Satan in Judaism. Jews do not have Satan as a powerful being that rules in Hell, to them they view Satan as a adversary, a angel that acts as a prosecutor. The concept that Satan is a "fallen" angel is not a teaching of theirs in spite of passages in Ezekiel (which they interpret differently). The issue of Satan is a debated one within the various Jewish sects. Most of there concern is over the idea that Satan supposedly has power over God or man (which he does not). However, all of them acknowledge that a adversary exists and is made to exist by God from time to time. Many Jews wrongly assume that Christian (and Islam) give Satan power that matches God or overpowers God which is not the case. They also argue that if there was a opposing force then God would/could simply wipe it out. While it is true that God could wipe evil out (since he does control everything) it is equally true that he could have made us to obey and not desire to be apart from God. Whether you want to call it Satan, or a adversary angel makes no difference, the fact remains that something exists that throws up evil and tempts. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....

BTW, SgtSmitty, you do realize that you wrongly jumped on me and questioned my "Basic" knowledge when your own knowledge on that very issue comes from asking someone else just as I asked someone else. So it just comes down to whose source is better on Judaism, not whose knowledge is better.

Well, my knowledge also comes from reading the Torah as well as Jewish friends I have met but that is beside the point. Again, my assumption is that you would have seen Satan mentioned and discussed in the OT Bible and would not have stated otherwise without providing some explanation as to why those instances were not Satan or the devil. If you are claiming to be a authority on Biblical issues then I stand corrected, I only have what you have written on the subject.

Check my sources? I have a copy of the Tanakh right here in front of me....there is no mention of any being called Satan/the devil in it.......the verse you mention describes the serpent, and does not call it Satan or the devil....

No...again, no direct mention of Satan or the devil....refers to The Adversary....

Walks like a duck, talks like a duck..... Either way, it is a force that is tempting and brings evil.

Unfounded? Hardly. Every Jew I know says the exact same thing...and, as I said, I have a copy of the Tanakh right here on my computer desk this very moment. And the words do NOT match....there are things added to the Christian OT not found in the Tanakh, in order to make some passages into Messianic prophecies for Christians, which the Jews do not count among their Messianic prophecies (which is why they say Jesus did NOT fulfill the Messianic prophecies...their list of those is different than ours).

Some quotes would have been nice, but oh well. I am sure they will come now. However, is it a word for word, verse for verse? I will give you that, it is not.
A good example is in Isaiah 9:
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of {His} government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore.

In the Tanakh this is found in Isaiah 9, however it starts in verse 5:
5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
6 That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever.
Words are different, verses are different. So I would agree that there are differences. Is the message the same? I most cases yes. but not all. As for the list if Messianic verses, that can be a whole other topic but I agree that the list is different, but it does overlap significantly. Christians usually leave out those that have not been fullfilled in some way.

So, I am sorry, but I'll take the word of at least 6 Jews I've spoken to about this in person to someone typing on the internet with no real credentials on the subject.

Funny, but you, Brad, Jill, Me, etc. are all some guy on the internet with no proven credentials. Does anyone really take what they find on the internet as the truth? And the fact that you have 6 Jewish friends is greatly dependent upon their knowledge as Brad has pointed out.

92

dharmagrl

on Apr 20, 2004

Yes, Jill, I DO consider you to be a bodhisattva..along with Brad, NickyG, Mack, MadPoet, PoetMom, Janders...and quite a few others. I had thought Dan was a bodhisattva but the events and revelations of the past few days have caused me to reconsider.

Sorry if this response is 'trolling'...!

93

Poetmom99

on Apr 20, 2004

"Yes, Jill, I DO consider you to be a bodhisattva..along with Brad, NickyG, Mack, MadPoet, PoetMom, Janders...and quite a few others."

Thank you for including me in that group...that is basically what I strive for....I have my beliefs, but I'm willing to listen to others, to explore other paths, to leave myself open to change....

94

JillUser

on Apr 20, 2004

Dharma, that wasn't trolling. You responded to something I, the blogger at hand, said that followed my conversation. Dan dropped in to give his arrogant 2 cents on who belonged on my blog. I think it is a wonderful thing when people can disagree with but not discount others' beliefs. I appreciate empathy. Some people just don't have a knack for empathy. It is either their way or wrong. I think Poetmom said exactly what I wanted to hear, i.e. have your beliefs but be open to others. You don't have to give up anything when it comes to your own faith to listen to another. Try to put yourself in the other's shoes.

I try to be empathetic. I realize everyone has had different experiences and different influences in their lives. I hope to learn from others experiences both good and bad. A lot of people have expressed the concern that you can't lead a good life without guidelines set forth by God. I think I know those rules by what I am told through heart and mind combined. I guess that is how I feel I communicate with God. I am lead to treat others well, to love and not hurt, to care for my family and friends, and to learn and use that knowledge to the best of my ability for as long as I can.

95

JillUser

on Apr 20, 2004

Poetmom and sgsmitty, I think your dispute just goes to show that we all need to do our own homework and not rely on the interpretations of others. See how differently a couple of people and their Jewish friends interpreted the Torah. Why shouldn't I feel a little sceptical about the Bible? We are talking a couple thousand years of interpretation by who knows how many people.

96

MyViewsAndMuse

on Apr 20, 2004

Poetmom and sgsmitty, I think your dispute just goes to show that we all need to do our own homework and not rely on the interpretations of others. See how differently a couple of people and their Jewish friends interpreted the Torah. Why shouldn't I feel a little sceptical about the Bible? We are talking a couple thousand years of interpretation by who knows how many people.

Ah, true. That is part of the spice of life I guess, our interpretations, opinions, etc. that we all have on many topics. I can certainly understand why to some the safest bet is to not choose although you still have made a choice. It would be nice if everyone could respect and accept differing opinions, but some of those opinions whether it be "you are going to hell for not accepting Jesus" or "believing in the flood", etc either contradict other's opinions or are unacceptable and ridiculed. I try not to "attack" those who think different on this issue, usually I am responding to someone else's criticism or attacks. But I am not perfect in that regard either.

See ya

97

Dan Kaschel

on Apr 20, 2004

I'm not a Bodhisattva. As a Christian, I profess to have already found enlightenment. My temporary stay on earth is not a journey toward heaven but toward perfection.

But I think I know what you mean in the other sense, as well.

~Dan

98

KarmaGirl

on Apr 20, 2004

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply By: KarmaGirl Posted: Friday, April 16, 2004

You said:
To much stuff to address

I say:
Read the bible.
You mention "Buddhism with a transcendentalist twist" seemingly to sound smart
but everything you said seemed to have no merit at all. I saw no basis to your
post. I'm sorry but I just didn't follow it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You don't follow because you are trying to say that the bible *is* the basis of religion, and that *Christianity* is the only religion. I didn't say "Buddhism with a transcendentalist twist" to sound "smart" I said it because I don't believe in Christianity.

It's debatable is Buddhism is even a religion. It more of an enlightenment than a religion. A way of life more than a way to act until you die. There isn't "heaven in hell" in Buddhism. The "transcendentalist twist" comes from my belief that everything happens for a reason (a basic transcendentalist belief) and that once you die, your energy returns to an "oversoul" since energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

I have read the bible (as I already said) and it's just a bunch of stories. Sorry, can't base my life on stories. If you can't understand it, you should read it again and try. it's simple:
There is no afterlife. When you die there is nothing. You never knew you existed. Does that sound scary to you? If so, clutch your bible tighter so it doesn't scare you anymore. Religion gives us an easy way to deal with death. Nobody wants to believe that it is simple "over" when you die. Does that mean that there is no "Creator"? I have no idea.

But, you won't understand what I am saying because it is not Christian. It is not based on the bible because the bible is just a book. Does that make me a "bad" person? In the eyes of a Christian it does. A Buddhist opinion would differ.

If you can't find "merit" in what I say, then you should read more about other religions. Christianity may be *your* religion, but it is not *everyone's* religion. No matter what you quote from the bible, you won't change my view.

99

KarmaGirl

on Apr 20, 2004

Oh, I just noticed Dharma's "bodhisattva" comment. I haven't seen that term mentioned in conversation in quite some time.

Funny thing with Buddhism, is that you can figure out how to deal with "pain" through enlightenment. I spend a lot of time at Dr.'s appointments and around people in pain. I see a lot of people who pray, or talk to others about "God" getting rid of their pain. But they still have pain. Now, I have a very high tolerance for pain. I have had arthritis since I was 13, but I have "enlightened" myself on how to ignore it (hence the high tolerance). (Learning to release the feeling of pain is similar to meditating by thinking about nothing). It's hard to explain. Buddhism teaches about life on Earth, where Christianity focuses on what happens after death (lead a life like this so that you go to heaven). Learning about Buddhism also strengthened my belief that the "heaven" that is talked about is already on Earth- you just have to find it (enlighten yourself to find Nirvana in your every day life).

100

Marvin Cooley

on Apr 20, 2004

Jilluser...........the last person to be able to judge ourselves objectively is ourselves. if we are evil, we cant see it.

101

Marvin Cooley

on Apr 20, 2004

jilluser.............the last person to be able to judge us objectively is ourselves. if any of us are evil, we are the last to see it.

102

JillUser

on Apr 20, 2004

Marvin, I agree that you can't be objective about yourself. You can , however, pay attention to how you are recieved by others. You can judge yourself by how others react to you. If you keep an open mind and take a step out of yourself, you can try to look at your life and see if you are being the best you you can be. If you are perfectly happy with everything about yourself, I imagine you are unable to take that step away. Noone, and I mean noone (as in no person) is perfect.

103

dharmagrl

on Apr 20, 2004

It's debatable is Buddhism is even a religion. It more of an enlightenment than a religion.

I think it's more of a philosophy than a religion.

As a Christian, I profess to have already found enlightenment.

Just because you profess it, doesn't make it true. I'd say that while I think you're on the path, you're nowhere near enlightened.

104

JillUser

on Apr 20, 2004

How you live your life is more important that what you say. In other words, walk the walk don't just talk the talk. Do your best to live according to your convictions. I have nothing but respect for people who practice what they preach as long as they are considerate with their preaching.

105

MyViewsAndMuse

on Apr 20, 2004

I have read the bible (as I already said) and it's just a bunch of stories. Sorry, can't base my life on stories. If you can't understand it, you should read it again and try. it's simple:
There is no afterlife. When you die there is nothing. You never knew you existed. Does that sound scary to you? If so, clutch your bible tighter so it doesn't scare you anymore. Religion gives us an easy way to deal with death. Nobody wants to believe that it is simple "over" when you die. Does that mean that there is no "Creator"? I have no idea.
But, you won't understand what I am saying because it is not Christian. It is not based on the bible because the bible is just a book. Does that make me a "bad" person? In the eyes of a Christian it does. A Buddhist opinion would differ.

Isn't this sort of attacking someone for *their* beliefs? Ridiculing them by telling them to clutch their bible tighter? I agree that you have your right to whatever opinion you wish to have but it seems like you are condemning someone because of their belief. I assume this is because they believe you will go to hell. How is that any more offensive than saying we return to a "oversoul"? Hell is a terrible place with anguish etc. To a Christian, telling them they are going to be returned to the "oversoul" without God is telling them they are going to a terrible place with anguish.

If you can't find "merit" in what I say, then you should read more about other religions. Christianity may be *your* religion, but it is not *everyone's* religion. No matter what you quote from the bible, you won't change my view.

So, do you find "merit" in Christianity?

Just because you profess it, doesn't make it true. I'd say that while I think you're on the path, you're nowhere near enlightened.

Now *you* are judging someone......

I have nothing but respect for people who practice what they preach as long as they are considerate with their preaching.

Agreed, but it should go both ways.