Nonchristian vs Antichristian

on Feb 15, 2006

The Jewish religion specifically says that non-Jews can go to heaven (or new earth or whatever you want to call it) if they are good people

They're called 'righteous gentiles' and I'm very honored to have been called one.

I believe that if you live a mindful life - meaning that you go through life without deliberately harming anyone, without taking that which does not belong to you and refraining from deception - and that you do good not only when the opportunity presents itself but you actively seek out opportunities to help your fellow man...well, that's all you need to be recycled when your time in this world is over. You don't need rituals, you don't need to know scripture backwards and forwards and upside down, you don't have to have been baptised and confirmed, and the fact that you wore jeans and tennis shoes to church on a sunday and shocked the rest of the congregation with your blatant sacrelidge won't matter a bit.

It's who you are as a person and what you do with your time here that really matters. I wish that more people would understand that.

62

MarcieMoo

on Feb 15, 2006

They're called 'righteous gentiles' and I'm very honored to have been called one.

I believe that if you live a mindful life - meaning that you go through life without deliberately harming anyone, without taking that which does not belong to you and refraining from deception - and that you do good not only when the opportunity presents itself but you actively seek out opportunities to help your fellow man...well, that's all you need to be recycled when your time in this world is over. You don't need rituals, you don't need to know scripture backwards and forwards and upside down, you don't have to have been baptised and confirmed, and the fact that you wore jeans and tennis shoes to church on a sunday and shocked the rest of the congregation with your blatant sacrelidge won't matter a bit.

It's who you are as a person and what you do with your time here that really matters. I wish that more people would understand that.

While I don't agree with your theology (and we both know that...lol), I think your last statement is really what it's all about. I think that no matter what your beliefs are you *should* try to be a good person.

One of my favorite Christian songs goes like this:

"What will you do with the time that's left, will you live it all with no regrets?
Will they say that you loved till your final breath? What will you do with the time that's left?"

When I die...I so want that played at my funeral.

63

Tova7

on Feb 15, 2006

Leauki I too see Jesus as Jewish and since the Bible tells us David was handsome...I see Jesus as being handsome as well....and well built having worked physically his whole life...

For some reason tho, when I think Jewish man, I get JEFF GOLDBLUM in my mind...I guess because I think he is HOT.

Big nose and all!

Oh yea!

64

bakerstreet

on Feb 15, 2006

"For some reason tho, when I think Jewish man, I get JEFF GOLDBLUM in my mind...I guess because I think he is HOT. Big nose and all!"

The ladies seemed to like Sammy Davis Jr, too.

65

Leauki

on Feb 16, 2006

I apologize for having an opinion.

For someone who wonders about their own open-mindedness you sure are easily offended. For example I never said you are not allowed to have an opinion.

I merely pointed out that something you said about other religions was wrong and that maybe you shouldn't have said it without learning about the other religions first.

You don't seem to mind risking to offend other people though.

Like you said, you aren't an expert and noone on Earth is when it comes to what God looks like. Therefore, noone can state as fact that God doesn't have looks and being created in his own image doesn't mean in likeness.

The Bible says that G-d is incorporeal. The Talmud confirms. How could He have looks if he has no form?

It's not proof, I know, but everything else we think we know about G-d is based on the same literature.

So if my child wears glasses and I don't, my child can't look like me?

If you have no physical appearance and are a being that created the world rather than be a product of it, I would say that, yes, if your child wears glasses he doesn't look like you.

Do you see the problem with that argument.

No. I also said it was a joke, not an argument. It's still true though.

66

kingbee

on Feb 16, 2006

The ladies seemed to like Sammy Davis Jr, too.

they were both real hep cats, man.

67

Leauki

on Feb 16, 2006

Leauki I too see Jesus as Jewish and since the Bible tells us David was handsome...I see Jesus as being handsome as well....and well built having worked physically his whole life...

Exactly. That's him all right.

68

JillUser

on Feb 16, 2006

The Bible says that G-d is incorporeal. The Talmud confirms. How could He have looks if he has no form?

It's not proof, I know, but everything else we think we know about G-d is based on the same literature.

Speak for yourself Leauki. Everything YOU feel you know about God is based on literature. I was actually just using Marcie's quote to point out that it really didn't say anything about how Jesus looked. I myself don't believe he was the son of God and I don't trust the bible to give me the information I need about God.

Sometimes I just play devil's advocate.

It's still true though.

I'm sorry Leauki but I won't be accepting any definitive statements about God as being true or false. You don't have anymore credentials when it comes to our creator than I do. Unless, of course, you have been in the presence of God and been given authority to enlighten the rest of us

69

Leauki

on Feb 16, 2006

Speak for yourself Leauki. Everything YOU feel you know about God is based on literature. I was actually just using Marcie's quote to point out that it really didn't say anything about how Jesus looked.

I don't get it.

If the Bible doesn't describe what Jesus looked like, we don't know whether he looked Jewish even though we have it on good authority that he was Jewish. So here we use the Bible as an authoritative source. (Even without the Bible it's a safe bet to say that anyone born in that region to a Jewish mother would look Jewish.)

But when the Bible says that G-d is incorporeal, when in fact entire religions are based on that idea, and we discuss that same G-d, we cannot know that He is incorporeal because only the Bible says so but nobody has seen Him?

So do we or do we not accept the Bible as correct in its descriptions of G-d and His alleged son?

For me the Bible is the most accurate source when it comes to descriptions of the Jewish (and Christian) G-d. The Bible defines these religions and it thus the primary source here.

70

JillUser

on Feb 16, 2006

Paul lived with Jesus and was with him all the time

Where did you get this info Marcie? Everything I have ever read says that it is doubtful they ever even met. Paul even persecuted christians until he had a vision of Jesus on a journey to Damascus.

But God and my faith have always been a constant. I don't need scientific proof.

It's a good thing because that is impossible. Again, proof negates faith.

Sorry...that was kind of a vendetta.

I don't know what vendetta you figured you had or how your comment filled it.

71

JillUser

on Feb 16, 2006

For me the Bible is the most accurate source when it comes to descriptions of the Jewish (and Christian) G-d. The Bible defines these religions and it thus the primary source here.

I'm not Jewish or Christian and neither are a lot of other people who still believe in God. Jesus was a real person born to a Jewish mother (and most likely as far as nonchristians are concerned, a Jewish father). That is why I figure he looked Jewish. I only brought what the bible said into the subject to point out that it was kind of silly to say that his being half-God would have any baring on what he looked like.

I actually agree that God doesn't have "a look" but not because of anything the bible says.

72

KarmaGirl

on Feb 16, 2006

Yes, Yoda. I'll make sure I plug time into my schedule to get all that studying done on top of cleaning, caring for my family, working my job, grading papers, and maybe...just maybe paying my bills.

Hmmm.... I guess this pretty much sums up what turns me off about most "Christians". Though they think that everyone should learn about their religion, they don't have "time" to learn about the other religions. Anyone who knows me knows that I am crazy busy *all* the time. Yet, I have still found time to learn about a wide range of religions and philosophies. I have even spent quite a bit of time (which I am still doing) learning about the differences in denominations of the Christian Church as well as Jehovah's Witnesses who are classified as "Christian" but really aren't by definition. Why do I do it? To keep learning and to keep my mind open to every possibility.

I can't debate with somebody on religion if they only have "time" to learn about one before "debating".

I am not anti-Christian, but I am definitely not "Christian". I just feel that all the other religions, which believe in "God", but not having to take Jesus as your saviour, make more sense. I won't say that Christians are "wrong", because I don't know. I've just started on my path to enlightenment- I still have a long way to go.

73

Leauki

on Feb 16, 2006

I guess this pretty much sums up what turns me off about most "Christians".

Yes. I guess she went into victim-mode a bit too quickly. I am slightly offended though, because she seemed to assume that the things she lists are specific to her, and that she is therefore exempt from having to learn about other religions before talking about them.

Non-Christians work too, they clean, they care for their families. But many among them (and Christians too) still find the time to do some basic research on things they feel they want to talk about. And if they don't, they are not offended if what they say turns out to be wrong.

I can't debate with somebody on religion if they only have "time" to learn about one before "debating".

Yes, I suppose that is true.

And it is an unfortunate fact that without such debate, Christianity would never have reached Marcie to give her what she apparently got from it. Perhaps it shouldn't stop there?

74

JillUser

on Feb 16, 2006

Paul came up with the concept that belief is the only thing that is really important and our actions are secondary. It was too difficult for many to abide by the laws of the Torah. With Paul’s new religion, all you had to do is believe in Jesus and you achieve eternal salvation when you die. What a deal! What a marketing campaign!

The reading that I have done regarding Paul brings me to agree with BenUser again (I doubt you'll see me say this about politics ever

). If you have faith, I guess you can explain it away as Paul having been guided by God to do so, but an objective bystander tends to see it as Paul taking the liberty of making christianity more pallitable to the masses. Very political. Christianity would not be what it is today without Paul. He was indeed a marketing genius.

Marcie wrote:

Paul wrote a lot of the New Testament,

actually he wrote at least 14 of the 27 books of the NT. So I think "a lot" should be replaced with "most". He also wrote that women should "learn in silence with all subjection" and not be alowed to "usurp authority over man".
So Paul isn't so appealing to the liberated women of today, in my opinion.

can't debate with somebody on religion if they only have "time" to learn about one before "debating".

I do find it frustrating to try to debate religion with christians who expect me to have studied the bible but they don't feel they should be expected to know anything about any other religion because theirs is the end all be all.

75

shadesofgrey

on Feb 16, 2006

Sorry, Jill--this comment is going to be off topic, so you won't hurt my feelings if you delete it.

Non-Christians work too, they clean, they care for their families. But many among them (and Christians too) still find the time to do some basic research on things they feel they want to talk about.

Leauki--Based on your knowledge on this thread and a couple of others I've read recently, I am curious if you ever formally studied religion/theology. I know you said you've read the Bible and the Koran--but your breadth of knowledge is quite remarkable. I'm very impressed.