Nonchristian vs Antichristian

on Feb 15, 2006

and living a moral, ethical life is the key to heaven

I respectfully disagree. I can be Hitler and say "I'm going to heaven because what I did is moral and ethical," while the other billions of people out there know that's not so at all. Hitler probably believed what he was doing was right at the time. So...if he believes it...that means it's okay?

Who sets the standard of what's moral and ethical?

I believe alot of getting into heaven is knowing that you don't know it all. I'm a Christian of course, and that's a part of it. I don't know it all, and I'll never know it all, and I do lots of shitty stuff to people, and I think lots of crappy thoughts about myself, other people, and God, too. But to other people I'm still nice lots of times. But I'd say overall I'm not really all that great. Other people might say I deserve to go to Heaven. But I'm not so sure....

32

MarcieMoo

on Feb 15, 2006

Nothing to do with what I said. I was talking about learning about other religions before you make statements about them. You don't have to believe in Judaism to know what it is. And you don't have to believe that Muhammed is a prophet to know what he said.

Yes, Yoda. I'll make sure I plug time into my schedule to get all that studying done on top of cleaning, caring for my family, working my job, grading papers, and maybe...just maybe paying my bills.

I think he looked Jewish.

You were there? Do you have a Polaroid? No one knows exactly what Jesus looked like. It's all imaginary. All those artists renditions are just that...artists renditions. Jesus is one-half God. So...that would mean that he looks kinda like God. Hmmmmm...that's interesting. Does it really matter what he looked like?

33

JillUser

on Feb 15, 2006

It's statements like THAT (equating the resurrection with Santa Claus) that explain why I have nothing to do with the DNC, ben. And it is ironic because, in a thread where tolerance was pretty much the rule, you had to show exactly what an anti-Christian IS.

Gid, that is an emotional response. I understand the response but try to take an objective look at what he said. I am not a fan of BenUser but I was able to look objectively at what he said. Lumping Jesus in with those other beliefs feels offensive to a christian I am sure but really look at a couple of the definitions of the word Myth-

A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.

Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.

A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal

Without faith, the resurrection is merely myth. He wasn't equating the resurrection with Santa Claus, he was just using the two along with other beliefs to make a point. Can you actually prove that Santa, ghosts, martians, etc. don't exist? Ben might not be delicate in the way he says things but I didn't see any antichristianity in what he wrote.

I think Tova was dead on when she discussed the hypersensitivity that is always part of conversations about religion.

That is why there is the old saying that religion and politics are not polite dinner conversation. I say dinner is far too boring without said topics!

34

shadesofgrey

on Feb 15, 2006

I can be Hitler and say "I'm going to heaven because what I did is moral and ethical," while the other billions of people out there know that's not so at all. Hitler probably believed what he was doing was right at the time. So...if he believes it...that means it's okay?

Um, there is a difference between leading a moral life and believing that you lead a moral life. I don't think anyone is going to argue that Hitler was a moral man.

I also think that you missed Leauki's point (which I am the first to admit, I often miss his point (sorry Leauki). I believe, and could be wrong, that he was responding to your comment that all religions think their way is the only way.

This is what you said:

I think that my Christian way is the only way to "heaven"...does that make me not open minded? I don't think so. I think every religion has that belief...

Having re-read it, and read what you've said since, I think you were only referring to Christian religions when you said "every religion"--if that is true, I understand why you thought Leauki's comments were off the mark. But strictly from what you wrote, he was dead-on point out that other religions do in fact have an inclusive "heaven" or afterlife.

I know that you hold God very dear to your heart, and I understand why you are "protecting" him. But, if I can be honest with you, you come off sounding a bit rabid. For example, Leauki said:

I think he looked Jewish.

and you responded:

You were there? Do you have a Polaroid? No one knows exactly what Jesus looked like. It's all imaginary. All those artists renditions are just that...artists renditions. Jesus is one-half God. So...that would mean that he looks kinda like God. Hmmmmm...that's interesting. Does it really matter what he looked like?

Leauki was merely stating his opinion. I've often wondered what Christ looks like. I stare up at the cross in Church and contemplate whether or not the dipiction is accurate. I find it interesting to hear what other people think he looks like. (And I will be honest, I have a sneaking suspicion that Leauki was employing a little bit of dry wit with his comment)--regardless, it certainly did need such a sarcastic reply.

Just my two cents --to be taken or left, however you choose!

35

shadesofgrey

on Feb 15, 2006

That is why there is the old saying that religion and politics are not polite dinner conversation. I say dinner is far too boring without said topics!

Same here--but only if everyone has agreed upon the ground rules in the beginning

36

JillUser

on Feb 15, 2006

think he looked Jewish.

You were there?

Whoa there Marcie. I think he said he looked Jewish because, well, Jesus was Jewish.

Yes, Yoda. I'll make sure I plug time into my schedule to get all that studying done on top of cleaning, caring for my family, working my job, grading papers, and maybe...just maybe paying my bills.

What if you got that response from someone who denounced Jesus without ever taking a look at the bible?

Jesus is one-half God. So...that would mean that he looks kinda like God.

Weren't we all supposedly created in God's likeness? So that wouldn't really narrow down what he looked like would it.

Does it really matter what he looked like?

Apparently it does to some.

37

JillUser

on Feb 15, 2006

That is why there is the old saying that religion and politics are not polite dinner conversation. I say dinner is far too boring without said topics!

Same here--but only if everyone has agreed upon the ground rules in the beginning

Absolutely.

38

MarcieMoo

on Feb 15, 2006

Um, there is a difference between leading a moral life and believing that you lead a moral life. I don't think anyone is going to argue that Hitler was a moral man.

I think you'd be surprised at how many people thought at the time that Hitler was moral, and how many people STILL think he was a moral man. And still, what person or group of people sets those standards? Who's to say what moral is or isn't?

Having re-read it, and read what you've said since, I think you were only referring to Christian religions when you said "every religion"--if that is true, I understand why you thought Leauki's comments were off the mark. But strictly from what you wrote, he was dead-on point out that other religions do in fact have an inclusive "heaven" or afterlife.

Nope. I meant that every religion--Hindu, Buddhist, etc., and then moved on to the disrepencies just in the Christian sects.

Leauki was merely stating his opinion. I've often wondered what Christ looks like. I stare up at the cross in Church and contemplate whether or not the dipiction is accurate. I find it interesting to hear what other people think he looks like. (And I will be honest, I have a sneaking suspicion that Leauki was employing a little bit of dry wit with his comment)--regardless, it certainly did need such a sarcastic reply.

I've wondered, too, and it's a perfectly normal thing to wonder. But, see, here's the deal: when you tell me that I'm not "open-minded enough" and perhaps I should re-examine my beliefs, I think a sarcastic reply is perfectly warranted.

I appreciate your concern, shades, but I don't think it's necessary to tell me how to or how not to respond to people.

39

MarcieMoo

on Feb 15, 2006

Weren't we all supposedly created in God's likeness? So that wouldn't really narrow down what he looked like would it.

Exactly my point. We all look like God.

So if you jumble us all together...there you have it.

40

MarcieMoo

on Feb 15, 2006

What if you got that response from someone who denounced Jesus without ever taking a look at the bible?

I believe what I believe, Jill. I had a choice, and so does every one else. Leauki took it upon himself to call me narrow-minded and say that God's not a nitpicker...well...hmmmm...

I sure got nit picked, wouldn't you say?

41

sushiK

on Feb 15, 2006

Marcie

stop spam quoting people.

42

shadesofgrey

on Feb 15, 2006

Nope. I meant that every religion--Hindu, Buddhist, etc., and then moved on to the disrepencies just in the Christian sects.

Well, then Leauki was right. Not every religion thinks that theirs is the only way to heaven.

I appreciate your concern, shades, but I don't think it's necessary to tell me how to or how not to respond to people.

You are free to respond how you'd like--but don't be surprised when people bite back. Leauki said you were narrowminded because you assumed things about other religions without learning about them. Narrowminded means "lacking of breadth of view"--which in this case, you clearly were.

I think you'd be surprised at how many people thought at the time that Hitler was moral, and how many people STILL think he was a moral man. And still, what person or group of people sets those standards? Who's to say what moral is or isn't?

Honestly, I'm not going to debate whether or not Hitler was moral. I'm honestly quite shocked that anyone would suggest that a person responsible for the murder of more than 6 million people could possibly be considered moral. I don't support the notion of moral relativism--some things are just wrong, plain and simple. I also don't think that you have to be Christian to know right from wrong. Willfully causing sorrow, suffering and hurt is wrong. Seems fairly simple to me.

43

ParaTed2k

on Feb 15, 2006

Tova:

I don't see Jesus as white when I picture him in my head.....dark eyes, dark hair...dark skin, like someone from the middle east would look.

Yeah, I've always wondered why so many depict him as lilly white with blonde hair and blue eyes myself. I've also wondered why so many paintings in Europe depict him as kind of weak looking, even effeminate. If he was a carpenter, he probably would have been well toned, but not muscle bound.

I've heard some people speculate that He may have been Black, but that wouldn't go with either the descriptions of him or the area where he was born he spent his life.

44

shadesofgrey

on Feb 15, 2006

But, see, here's the deal: when you tell me that I'm not "open-minded enough" and perhaps I should re-examine my beliefs, I think a sarcastic reply is perfectly warranted.

Sorry to respond twice, but just for the record, Leauki did not tell you to reexamine your beliefs. He corrected a statment that you made that was factually wrong:

Are you open-minded? Perhaps you are not open-minded enough. If you were, would you not have verified what the other two Abrahamic religions have to say about the matter before you announce that every religion has the belief that it is the only way to heaven?

45

MarcieMoo

on Feb 15, 2006

Okay. Sorry!