I believe scripture interprets scripture

   Bit of a circular arguement isn't it?

The problem with taking scripture totally symbolic is that these groups out there can make it stand for whatever they wish to perpetrate their religion. That's when it gets nasty.

I agree with that!

 

I dunno. Be honest. Do you really believe a giant fish ate Jonah? Do you really believe the universe was created in 7 days? Do you really believe that Lott's wife turned into a pillar of salt?

I believe those things. Does that make me ignorant or a simpleton? I suppose it does.

Jill: I'm not Christian, so it's just a book to me. I don't think it can be taken literally, even by Christians, because it is clear that it is not designed for that. Jesus spoke in parables and explained (as in the scripture above) that not everyone will understand the scriptures or instructions...that it is that way by design.

I can make the Bible say anything I want it to say if I nitpick. Let's take the Bible's shortest verse: "Jesus wept." Yup. Those two words prove EVERYTHING! He's a total pussy!

Jesus spoke in parables because people don't understand all the spiritual "terminology" crap. Frankly, I don't understand it. So Jesus put the points he was trying to make into stories people could understand: Like stories about family--the Prodigal son, stories about farming--the seed falling on the rock and on fertile ground, etc., etc. Jesus was meant to be accessible--Christianity is accessible. Not easy, but accessible. I choose to believe that I can go to God with ANYTHING. I believe God can do anything. ANYTHING!

Who was Jesus speaking to in those Matthew Scriptures you quoted? I think that's important to note. He was talking to his disciples, the dudes he CHOSE to go with Him to tell the world about God. These dudes KNEW who Jesus was--they *got* it. The people they were talking to didn't. These guys had EVERY priviledge and exceptional understanding, but they still didn't get it--"thought seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand."

I can look at something. I can have someone explain something to me, I can hear the noises that something makes, but I can still CHOOSE not to believe the proof that's right in front of me. My cat's sitting on the pillow here beside the computer screen. I can hear her purring. I can feel her breath on my hand. I can see her green eyes starting to get droopy. But I can still CHOOSE not to believe she's there even though I can see, hear, and feel her.

Who was Jesus speaking to in those Matthew Scriptures you quoted? I think that's important to note. He was talking to his disciples, the dudes he CHOSE to go with Him to tell the world about God. These dudes KNEW who Jesus was--they *got* it. The people they were talking to didn't. These guys had EVERY priviledge and exceptional understanding, but they still didn't get it--"thought seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand."

There's another Scripture, I'll have to look for it, but it speaks directly about Scripture not being intended to be understood by all. Simply put, many parts of the Bible are difficult to understand or glean any sort of applicable meaning from.

That's why you have so many authors and other Christians promoting different interpretations of the same books or verses. These are generally all people earnestly attempting to learn what is meant in whatever book, chapter, or verse. And yet they come up with different things.

It's not so much a matter of *choosing* not to understand, but more of the Scripture being enigmatic to the point that even Christians with similar beliefs cannot agree on a meaning.

There's another Scripture, I'll have to look for it, but it speaks directly about Scripture not being intended to be understood by all. Simply put, many parts of the Bible are difficult to understand or glean any sort of applicable meaning from. That's why you have so many authors and other Christians promoting different interpretations of the same books or verses. These are generally all people earnestly attempting to learn what is meant in whatever book, chapter, or verse. And yet they come up with different things. It's not so much a matter of *choosing* not to understand, but more of the Scripture being enigmatic to the point that even Christians with similar beliefs cannot agree on a meaning.

And if everyone dumbed down about it and just took it for what it says we'd all be on the same page instead of trying to be so scholarly about it. We just have to make things complicated.

I can see why Christianity is so confusing to people who are on the "outside" looking in. If I hadn't started out in a church I'd probably never into one either. I think "Christians"--and I use that term loosely because my definition of Chrisitanity is much more exclusive than incluse--really do non-Christians a disservice by having a list full of "rules" to abide by that aren't in the Bible and by speaking "church talk" to people who don't understand "church talk". Jesus was smart about that.

The disciples also questioned Jesus' parables, Marcie. They had to have them explained as well.

If I hadn't started out in a church I'd probably never into one either.

So what about the people who are born in Muslim areas of the world. Is God making it more difficult for them to find Jesus? Why would our creator favor people of some parts of the land over others? If you were born in India and started out in a Hindu temple rather than a christian church, how would that effect your path to God? That is one of my big questions about the exclusivity of christianity.

I believe those things. Does that make me ignorant or a simpleton? I suppose it does.

In Shovelheat's defense, he said it was just his opinion (i.e. 2 cents). Noone is calling anyone ignorant here. Just posing questions regarding each others' beliefs. That is how we learn, right?

People are very passionate about religion so it is always easy to get defensive. I think everyone has been very respectful so far.

The disciples also questioned Jesus' parables, Marcie. They had to have them explained as well.

Yes. They didn't quite get it either. It says that afterwards it all made sense. They were not given the HS until afterwards. That's what's needed for understanding. You see a big difference in them before and after Pentecost.

When he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this to them and they believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had said. John 2:22

Then he opened their understanding that they might understand the scriptures. Luke 24:45.

See, we can't understand it without his opening our eyes. I tell non Christians to try asking for this understanding for a month and read the book of John while doing so. God says those that seek me will find me. It's like a lightbulb goes on.

So what about the people who are born in Muslim areas of the world. Is God making it more difficult for them to find Jesus?

There are Christians springing out of that faith and others as well. I'm reading a book written by two Muslim brothers raised in OHIO that left Islam. The three brothers left (2 wrote the book) and their father disowned them. They said if they didn't live here in the States they would have been killed. His book? "Unveiling Islam." The brothers now have their Ph.D's in Theology and are Professors. Their names? Ergun Mehmet Caner and Emir Fethi Caner.

No one would listen to them before 9/11. Now they are in demand for speaking engagements. I've heard Ergun especially is a dynamic speaker.

I don't think it's any harder for a Muslim to find Jesus as God as it is an atheist or even a non-Christian churchgoer. God doesn't see it like that. It's either for or against me. It's either Jesus is God or he isn't.

Christianity is inclusive as well as exclusive. It's inclusive for all that will believe and exclusive for all that won't.

It all basically comes down to one question. "Who do you say that I am?"

#10 by Texas Wahine

Matthew 13:10-17

has been given to you

Here Jesus is clearly affirming their ability to understand spiritual truth is a gift from God, bestowed to the elect....

but not to them.

the unbelievers are passed over. They are reaping the natural consequences of their own unbelief...spiritual blindness.

Though seeing they, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Matthew suggests that their own unbelief is the cause of their blindness.

sorry it's the bible teacher in me.

Yes. They didn't quite get it either. It says that afterwards it all made sense. They were not given the HS until afterwards. That's what's needed for understanding. You see a big difference in them before and after Pentecost.

If we receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism, then how are those new to Christianity supposed to understand the Scriptures if that is what required to grasp the meaning in them?

See, we can't understand it without his opening our eyes. I tell non Christians to try asking for this understanding for a month and read the book of John while doing so. God says those that seek me will find me. It's like a lightbulb goes on.

It's clearly something designed to be exclusive and difficult to grasp, wouldn't you agree, if one is not able to understand the meaning or truth in the Scriptures without having a certain mindset?

sorry it's the bible teacher in me.

Notta problem. I understand the context of the Scripture I quoted. It does demonstrate, however, that the Bible, according TO the Bible, is not a straight-forward book which can be easily understood. Much is subject to interpretation, and of course every Christian believes that they, with the help of the Holy Spirit, and intense study, have the key to the correct interpretation.

If it were literal and crystal clear, we wouldn't have so many denominations convinced that they alone understand the true meaning.

It's clearly something designed to be exclusive and difficult to grasp, wouldn't you agree, if one is not able to understand the meaning or truth in the Scriptures without having a certain mindset?

Not really. If you are looking for the Truth, then you will find it. I had a girl in my room last week who argued left and right with me about why teenagers do drugs (her reason was that ALL parents were abusive); and she then continued on with saying one out of every two girls are abused by their teenage years. I argued with her and tried to prove her wrong....which she was on both accounts...yet she failed to grasp the truth and stuck to her own beliefs...because they were based on what she has seen and heard from others (ie....many of her friends are druggies and many of them have been abused). If you are looking for your own version of the Truth...then you will often skip Christianity and keep on looking until you find whatever fits what you are looking for. When people talk about Christianity...they talk like the following: "Im not a Christian because I..." "Im not a Christian Because I dont agree" "Im not a Christian Because God didnt help me out when I needed it" Me Me Me. People, when they talk about their walk in life and finding a faith to follow...they always talk about how they match the X belief because of something that they agree or don't agree with themselves. They have a mindset of "I want something that accepts me for who I am and lets me do whatever I want and agrees with everything I beleive"

Not really. If you are looking for the Truth, then you will find it.

You're still putting forth that same argument...that understanding Scriptures requires a mindset of eager acceptance (or Holy intervention).

I had a girl in my room last week who argued left and right with me about why teenagers do drugs (her reason was that ALL parents were abusive); and she then continued on with saying one out of every two girls are abused by their teenage years. I argued with her and tried to prove her wrong....which she was on both accounts...

Eek. What class were you teaching?

You're still putting forth that same argument...that understanding Scriptures requires a mindset of eager acceptance (or Holy intervention).

understanding the scriptures of God shouldnt be a rocket science. It is also not supposed to be easy. Its something that requires one to think a bit about themselves and their lives; which is why many people dont follow it, because they feel it is too constrictive. He made it so all could read and learn from it.

Eek. What class were you teaching?

I wasn't teaching a class. Kids are sent to my room if they break the school rules or their teachers can't handle them (ie...they are disruptive, misconduct, profanity...etc). When I said she was wrong...I didnt mean she was totally wrong as far as her viewpoints...but I certainly don't believe that 50% of girls have been abused by their teenage years....although I know it is a large percentage....but it is not 50%. I also know that some people do drugs to escape from family circumstances...but I think that is not the main reason why they do it.

I'm reading a book written by two Muslim brothers raised in OHIO that left Islam.

They were raised in Ohio KFC. That means they were exposed to a lot of christianity all around them. Can't you admit that a whole heck of a lot more American kids get exposed to christianity than in the middle East or India? I would say that Americans then have a big advantage in knowing about and learning about Jesus. Why would that be?

Me Me Me

I have a question for you: why are you following the Christian path? Why are you refraining from having sex before marriage? Don't say it's because the bible tell yolu not to, because the bible tells you to do/not do a whole lot of stuff that we regularly ignore. Why are you living what you consider to be a godly and holy life?

I'd guess it's because of the promise of eternal life in heaven. The bible says that the righteous won't get their rewards in this life, but in the next....so I'd say it's all about YOUR salvation. YOUR redemption. So, before you go on about 'me me me', I'd take a look at what you're doing and why. Because I'm pretty sure you're not doing it for altruistic reasons.