The adventures of Mommy woman
Published on October 28, 2004 By JillUser In Politics

I recieved this in an email from a dear friend.  I already checked it out on snopes.com so I figured I would share it.  It articulates, from a well experienced military member, the character deficiency that I loathe in Senator Kerry.  I cringe every time I hear someone say that Kerry was brave for giving his Senate testimony when he returned from the war.

Here you go:

Bring it on, John
> by Oliver North
>
> August 27, 2004
>
> "Of course, the president keeps telling people he would never question
> my service to our country. Instead, he watches as a Republican-funded
> attack group does just that. Well, if he wants to have a debate about our
> service in Vietnam, here is my answer: 'Bring it on.'" -- Sen. John Kerry


> Dear John,
>
> As usual, you have it wrong. You don't have a beef with President George
> Bush about your war record. He's been exceedingly generous about your
> military service. Your complaint is with the 2.5 million of us who
> servedb honorably in a war that ended 29 years ago and which you, not the
> president, made the centerpiece of this campaign.
> I talk to a lot of vets, John, and this really isn't about your medals
> or how you got them. Like you, I have a Silver Star and a Bronze Star. I
> only have two Purple Hearts, though. I turned down the others so that I could
> stay with the Marines in my rifle platoon. But I think you might agree
> with me, though I've never heard you say it, that the officers always got
> more medals than they earned and the youngsters we led never got as many
> medals as they deserved.
>
> This really isn't about how early you came home from that war, either,
> John. There have always been guys in every war who want to go home.
> There are also lots of guys, like those in my rifle platoon in Vietnam, who
> did a full 13 months in the field. And there are, thankfully, lots of young
> Americans today in Iraq and Afghanistan who volunteered to return to war
> because, as one of them told me in Ramadi a few weeks ago, "the job
> isn't finished." Nor is this about whether you were in Cambodia on Christmas Eve, 1968.
> Heck John, people get lost going on vacation. If you got lost, just say so.
> Your campaign has admitted that you now know that you really weren't in
> Cambodia that night and that Richard Nixon wasn't really president when you
> thought he was. Now would be a good time to explain to us how you could have all
> that bogus stuff "seared" into your memory -- especially since you want
> to have your finger on our nation's nuclear trigger.
>
> But that's not really the problem, either. The trouble you're having,
> John, isn't about your medals or coming home early or getting lost -- or even
> Richard Nixon. The issue is what you did to us when you came home, John.
> When you got home, you co-founded Vietnam Veterans Against the War and
> wrote "The New Soldier," which denounced those of us who served -- and
> were still serving -- on the battlefields of a thankless war. Worst of all,
> John, you then accused me -- and all of us who served in Vietnam -- of
> committing terrible crimes and atrocities.
> On April 22, 1971, under oath, you told the Senate Foreign Relations
> Committee that you had knowledge that American troops "had personally
> raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones
> to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies,
> randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of
> Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and
> generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam." And you admitted
> on television that "yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as
> thousands of other soldiers have committed."
>
> And for good measure you stated, "(America is) more guilty than any
> other body, of violations of (the) Geneva Conventions ... the torture of
> prisoners, the killing of prisoners."
> Your "antiwar" statements and activities were painful for those of us
> carrying the scars of Vietnam and trying to move on with our lives. And
> for those who were still there, it was even more hurtful. But those who
> suffered the most from what you said and did were the hundreds of
> American prisoners of war being held by Hanoi. Here's what some of them endured
> because of you, John:
> Capt. James Warner had already spent four years in Vietnamese custody
> when he was handed a copy of your testimony by his captors. Warner says that
> for his captors, your statements "were proof I deserved to be punished." He
> wasn't released until March 14, 1973.
>
> Maj. Kenneth Cordier, an Air Force pilot who was in Vietnamese custody
> for 2,284 days, says his captors "repeated incessantly" your one-liner about
> being "the last man to die" for a lost cause. Cordier was released March
> 4, 1973.


> Navy Lt. Paul Galanti says your accusations "were as demoralizing as
> solitary (confinement) ... and a prime reason the war dragged on." He
> remained in North Vietnamese hands until February 12, 1973.
> John, did you think they would forget? When Tim Russert asked about your
> claim that you and others in Vietnam committed "atrocities," instead of
> standing by your sworn testimony, you confessed that your words "were a
> bit over the top." Does that mean you lied under oath? Or does it mean you
> are a war criminal? You can't have this one both ways, John. Either way,
> you're not fit to be a prison guard at Abu Ghraib, much less commander in
> chief.


> One last thing, John. In 1988, Jane Fonda said: "I would like to say
> something ... to men who were in Vietnam, who I hurt, or whose pain I
> caused to deepen because of things that I said or did. I was trying to
> help end the killing and the war, but there were times when I was thoughtless
> and careless about it and I'm ... very sorry that I hurt them. And I want
> to apologize to them and their families."
> Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?
>
> Oliver North is a nationally syndicated columnist, host of the Fox News
> Channel's War Stories and founder and honorary chairman of Freedom
> Alliance.


Comments (Page 6)
7 PagesFirst 4 5 6 7 
on Oct 30, 2004

Reply #72 By: Myrrander - 10/29/2004 8:30:03 PM
drmiler -- It's posters like you that make me understand this Republic even more. We're polar opposites in politics, but when they hoist that flag and play the "Star Spangled Banner" we're both going to get goose bumps and cheer. I think of you as a brother.


Yes I get goose bumps listening to "The Star Spangled Banner" and I cry upon hearing "Taps"! I do so because the hearing of it means another good man/woman is gone!
on Oct 30, 2004

I guess since I respect John Kerry's anti-war activities, then I really don't care what a criminal like Oliver North has to say about them

Nice closed mind there since others showed you aso many more POWs.  yea, you are a good liberal. Ignore the facts, just keep repeating the mantra!

on Oct 30, 2004
To all the armchair generals / chickenhawks, you think Iraq is a good and noble war, hit your recruiter's office and shut the .... up.



I have to agree with you there, deference. It's easy to support a war that requires nothing of you.

While I am too old to serve, I have a son 18, and another 12.  They are the soldiers in the new war.  Dont think I have not thought this through.  It is easy to be a coward.  It takes courage to stand up for what you beleive in.  My life is nothing compared to my sons.  And they are the soldiers of today.  not some pansy that does not understand the meaning of the word is.

on Oct 30, 2004
[quote
To all the armchair generals / chickenhawks, you think Iraq is a good and noble war, hit your recruiter's office and shut the .... up.



I have to agree with you there, deference. It's easy to support a war that requires nothing of you.

Double BS!  I know some one who did!  And I saw it!  Oh they are trying to rewite history!  But unfortuately, like the neo nazis, there are still people who remember the truth,

It is funny they are adopting the tactics of the neo nazis.  Seems both are ashamed of their past.

on Oct 30, 2004

Sunwunkong,

 

I dont have to read anything.  i was there.  And I saw it, and my friends did as well.  for you it is history to be researched.  For me, it is my life that I saw first hand. Deny it all you want, But you are just being foolish.  Walk a mile in Paul Galanti's shoes.  Or if you are a coward, walk a mile in mine.  I was there, but I was not a POW.  Just living history. Kerry is a coward and traitor.  Vote for who you want.

on Oct 30, 2004
Reply #69 By: drmiler - 10/29/2004 8:06:53 PM
...
BTW research away.


Ok, I'm not done yet but here's what I have so far.

This site (Link) has the UCMJ Subchapter X (Section 904), Article 104, plus some discussion about its interpretation.

Likewise, Subchapter 1, Article 2 "PERSONS SUBJECT TO THIS CHAPTER" (Link) covers the circumstances required for someone to be subject to the UCMJ.

US Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 45, § 953, "Private correspondence with foreign governments" (Link)

Ok, next step (and the biggest), finding definitive sources about Kerry's circumstances and testimony about his contact with the NVA/VC in Paris.
on Oct 30, 2004
Reply #81 By: Dr. Guy - 10/30/2004 2:27:43 PM
Sunwunkong,

I dont have to read anything. i was there. And I saw it, and my friends did as well. for you it is history to be researched. For me, it is my life that I saw first hand. Deny it all you want, But you are just being foolish. Walk a mile in Paul Galanti's shoes. Or if you are a coward, walk a mile in mine. I was there, but I was not a POW. Just living history. Kerry is a coward and traitor. Vote for who you want.


Take a deep breath when reading posts -- slow down and consider how things were stated:
- I am *not* an American
- I was born during the Vietnam War

These two facts alone require research on my part to understand the facts underlying the issue at hand.

Likewise, not having a direct, personal/nationalist stake in the US Presidency, I don't rely on force of personality or testimony from *anyone* to draw my conclusions. Especially when speaking about points of law, which can be politically influenced but are (in practical terms) entirely separate from notions of morality, ethics or justice. Given the sleaze evidenced on all sides of this election, I have no doubts my cynicism and skeptical approach to all bold statements is the prudent path before making judgements.
on Oct 30, 2004

Your fairness in responding to this post has increased my respect for you even furthur
I have a lot of respect for you too Myr.  I once wrote an article about separating people from their politics.  I learn much more from those with beliefs that differ from my own and would suffer dire losses if I dismissed those who don't agree with my politics.


I used to shy way from blogging about politics because I took it personally when people slammed my beliefs.  I think I have grown from those experiences.  I appreciate the fact that people haven't been nasty on here even though it is easy to see why it can get very emotional.


I personally feel Bush is a better man than Kerry.  I will never agree with Kerry being the right choice but I will certainly do everything I can to help our country move in the right direction even if he wins.  I get discouraged when I hear that people will dissent just to prove that Kerry isn't any more of a uniter.  We have to stop worrying about making points for one side or the other and return to doing what is right for America as a whole.


Some might think that more social programs are going to solve our problems.  I personally believe personally responsibility and taking care of your own personal world (i.e. your own family, friends, neighbors, members of your community) is the answer.  I suspect if both sides put action behind their words, we will make real progress.


If Americans could deal constructively to our crisis as you would any personal crisis, meaning acting rather than merely appointing blame, we would be far better off right now.  Sure, we need to find out the cause of things went wrong but then we need to work together to fix things.  The biggest problem I see is politics getting in the way of doing what needs to be done.  One side doesn't want to vote for anything that will end up looking good for the other side even when they know it is the best thing to do.


The initial, "well you can't trust anything Ollie says" type response is indicative of the problem.  Too many people are now thinking "I just won't listen to anything _______ says".  I'm not saying you shouldn't proceed with caution if someone has proven themselves to be untrustworthy.  I am just saying that the truth can come from surprising sources sometimes....like from Democrats

on Oct 30, 2004
Dr Guy:
While I am too old to serve, I have a son 18, and another 12. They are the soldiers in the new war. Dont think I have not thought this through. It is easy to be a coward. It takes courage to stand up for what you beleive in. My life is nothing compared to my sons. And they are the soldiers of today. not some pansy that does not understand the meaning of the word is


I'm not following what you are saying here. Obviously your 12 year old is not a soldier . . . is your 18 year old? What pansy and the meaning of what word? I don't get what you are saying here.
on Oct 30, 2004

Reply #85 By: Texas Wahine - 10/30/2004 5:06:00 PM
Dr Guy: While I am too old to serve, I have a son 18, and another 12. They are the soldiers in the new war. Dont think I have not thought this through. It is easy to be a coward. It takes courage to stand up for what you beleive in. My life is nothing compared to my sons. And they are the soldiers of today. not some pansy that does not understand the meaning of the word is


I'm not following what you are saying here. Obviously your 12 year old is not a soldier . . . is your 18 year old? What pansy and the meaning of what word? I don't get what you are saying here.


Dr Guy is refering to John Kerry. I mean come on TW, that much was obvious. You know how Dr Guy and I both feel about what Kerry said and did when he came home.
on Oct 30, 2004
Actually, I still don't get what he's saying . . . his kids are not deployed overseas. They are not "soldiers in the new war." If you think pansy refers to Kerry, OK, that explains one part. What does he mean by "that does not understand the meaning of the word is?" Is he talking about Clinton instead of Kerry? Huh?
on Oct 30, 2004

Reply #87 By: Texas Wahine - 10/30/2004 9:20:38 PM
Actually, I still don't get what he's saying . . . his kids are not deployed overseas. They are not "soldiers in the new war." If you think pansy refers to Kerry, OK, that explains one part. What does he mean by "that does not understand the meaning of the word is?" Is he talking about Clinton instead of Kerry? Huh?


No. Kerry does not know the meaning of being a soldier
on Oct 30, 2004
OK. I guess I'm just dense, because I couldn't get anything out of his comment. I don't speak "DrGuy" he he he . . .

Thanks, drmiler.

(Still don't explain how his kids are "soldiers in the new war" . . . guess he'll have to explain that one for me.)
on Oct 30, 2004

Reply #82 By: sunwukong - 10/30/2004 2:35:29 PM
Reply #69 By: drmiler - 10/29/2004 8:06:53 PM
...
BTW research away.


Ok, I'm not done yet but here's what I have so far.

This site (Link) has the UCMJ Subchapter X (Section 904), Article 104, plus some discussion about its interpretation.

Likewise, Subchapter 1, Article 2 "PERSONS SUBJECT TO THIS CHAPTER" (Link) covers the circumstances required for someone to be subject to the UCMJ.

US Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 45, § 953, "Private correspondence with foreign governments" (Link)

Ok, next step (and the biggest), finding definitive sources about Kerry's circumstances and testimony about his contact with the NVA/VC in Paris.



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Punitive Articles of the UCMJ

Article 104—Aiding the enemy

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Text. “Any person who—

(1) aids, or attempts to aid, the enemy with arms, ammunition, supplies, money, or other things; or

(2) without proper authority, knowingly harbors or protects or gives intelligence to or communicates or corresponds with or holds any intercourse with the enemy, either directly or indirectly; shall suffer death or such other punishment as a court-martial or military commission may direct.”




Likewise, Subchapter 1, Article 2 "PERSONS SUBJECT TO THIS CHAPTER" (Link) covers the circumstances required for someone to be subject to the UCMJ.



(a) The following persons are subject to this chapter:

(1) Members of a regular component of the armed forces, including those awaiting discharge after expiration of their terms of enlistment; volunteers from the time of their muster or acceptance into the armed forces; inductees from the time of their actual induction into the armed forces; and other persons lawfully called or ordered into, or to duty in or for training in the armed forces, from the dates when they are required by the terms of the call or order to obey it.

(2) Cadets, aviation cadets, and midshipman.

(3) Members of a reserve component while on inactive-duty training, but in the case of members of the Army National Guard of the United States or the Air National Guard of the United States only when in Federal Service.



Given what I have highlighted There is NO need to look into the circumstances. What I have highlighted is *exactly* what JAG (Judge Advocate General) will/would look at. Fact he was still subject to the UCMJ! Fact he violated the UCMJ. For the most part when it comes to the UCMJ circumstances are irrelevant! That's why the UCMJ is so presise in it's wording.
Maybe you should go read this. I'm not the only one who feels like this. Link
on Oct 30, 2004
drmiler,
Thank you for sharing that last link!
I have signed the petition, along with 10 (and counting) shipmates at my hubby's squadron.
I hope that some of you will do the same.
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